The World at War?, A look at the really big picture

[OrangeEmpire]

Okay so let’s get it out and in the open…

Bush is a fool

Cheney is all about oil

It’s the Neo-cons!

Iraq is a mistake!

But…is it?

So many of our threads our discussions at the heart of them is the one question:

Are we at war?

I say that we, not only this nation but all the nations in the ‘civilized world’ NATO, and Japan, and Australia…and Israel, and a few others are in fact:

At war…

I take this position:

From Newt Gingrich:

I responded by saying why I believe this is exactly the wrong option. The fact is that the members of the Iran-Syria-Hezbollah-Hamas alliance have no interest in negotiation. The Iranian dictator has announced his intention to defeat America and wipe Israel off the map. Hezbollah and Hamas are similarly dedicated to the destruction of Israel. Hezbollah leader Hassan Nasrallah declared on April 9, 2000, "The Jews invented the legend of the Nazi atrocities," and further argued, "Anyone who reads the Koran and the holy writings of the monotheistic religions sees what they did to the prophets, and what acts of madness and slaughter the Jews carried out throughout history ... Anyone who reads these texts cannot think of co-existence with them, of peace with them, or about accepting their presence, not only in Palestine of 1948 but even in a small village in Palestine, because they are a cancer which is liable to spread again at any moment."

And then I used an analogy to dealing with such people that seemed to hit home. I said to Matt: "When we were faced with this in World War II, Matt, we didn't say, 'Let's negotiate with Adolph Hitler. I'm sure we can find reasonable grounds for only having half of a Holocaust.'

"We said Hitler's regime was evil, that we had to have total victory, and we were very clear about that."

Newt quoted the leader of Iran…what of Osama bin Laden

"We should fully understand our religion. Fighting is a part of our religion and our Sharia [an Islamic legal code]. Those who love God and his Prophet and this religion cannot deny that. Whoever denies even a minor tenet of our religion commits the gravest sin in Islam."

"Hostility toward America is a religious duty, and we hope to be rewarded for it by God . . . . I am confident that Muslims will be able to end the legend of the so-called superpower that is America. Time Magazine

"The pieces of the bodies of infidels were flying like dust particles. If you would have seen it with your own eyes, you would have been very pleased, and your heart would have been filled with joy." -- At the wedding of his son in southern Kandahar about the 17 sailors who died suicide bombing of the USS Cole off the coast of Yemen

"Every American man is an enemy to us." -- Independent.
" . . . It is far better for anyone to kill a single American soldier than to squander his efforts on other activities." -- May 1998

"We--with God's help--call on every Muslim who believes in God and wishes to be rewarded to comply with God's order to kill the Americans and plunder their money wherever and whenever they find it. We also call on Muslim ulema, leaders, youths, and soldiers to launch the raid on Satan's U.S. troops and the devil's supporters allying with them, and to displace those who are behind them so that they may learn a lesson." Feb. 1998 - Bin Laden edict

and for me the ‘payoff pitch

(from PBS…)

"The ruling to kill the Americans and their allies -- civilians and military -- is an individual duty for every Muslim who can do it in any country in which it is possible to do it, in order to liberate the al-Aqsa Mosque and the holy mosque [Mecca] from their grip, and in order for their armies to move out of all the lands of Islam, defeated and unable to threaten any Muslim."

and what of Iran and Mahmoud Ahmadinejad?

“Anybody who recognizes Israel will burn in the fire of the Islamic nation's fury,”

“The fighting in Palestine is a war between the (whole) Islamic nation and the world of arrogance, ... Today, Palestinians are representing the Islamic nation against arrogance.”

From the New York Times

Many who are disappointed in the struggle between the Islamic world and the infidels have tried to spread the blame. They say it is not possible to have a world without the United States and Zionism. But you know that this is a possible goal and slogan.

…

For over 50 years the world oppressor (the US) tried to give legitimacy to the occupying regime and it has taken measures in this direction to stabilize it. About 27 or 28 years ago they took a major step and unfortunately one of the leading countries made a mistake which we hope will correct it.[an apparent reference to the peace treaty between Egypt and Israel].

And that is what he thinks of negotiation…

Total victory…that’s what our avowed enemies call for…

To have that, for us to live as we are, well don’t we have to band together and fight?

What say you? Is it war?

 

[volinbham]

The most troubling aspect to me is that it is a war of ideologies. Those ideologies will survive beyond casualties and leadership changes on both sides.

The ideologies are not compatible and the conflict will remain until one ideology is so widely adopted that the other is completely marginalized.

One area were I do think the neo-con view has merit is the idea of transformation through hopefulness. Of course the major problem is the destruction that must be used to clear the path for transformation creates such ill-will.