TP is so terrible but the alternative is this?

#1
utvolpj

utvolpj

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#1
Some quotes from the last few days:

Governor Deval Patrick...

"It seems like child’s play compared to what is going on in Washington, where it is almost at the level of sedition, it feels to like me,” Patrick said.
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Thomas Friedman...

So I don't—I, I—I'm worried about this, it's why I have fantasized—don't get me wrong—but that what if we could just be China for a day? I mean, just, just, just one day. You know, I mean, where we could actually, you know, authorize the right solutions, and I do think there is a sense of that, on, on everything from the economy to environment.
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our dear leader...

As your Superintendent indicated, under our constitutional system my power as President is wisely limited. But there are some areas where my power is absolute.
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of course they kinda backtracked on these statements (well, except Obama's which I would like know what powers he means).

So I'm really having a problem figuring out which seems more dangerous
 
#2
#2
Friedman's is the dumbest. I read that editorial several times and it keeps getting dumber and dumber.
 
#3
#3
volinbham said:
Friedman's is the dumbest. I read that editorial several times and it keeps getting dumber and dumber.
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But hey I applaud his honesty. This is how I feel most of the Democrats (and even a good chunk of the Repubs) truly feel.
 
#4
#4
utvolpj said:
Some quotes from the last few days:







of course they kinda backtracked on these statements (well, except Obama's which I would like know what powers he means).

So I'm really having a problem figuring out which seems more dangerous
Click to expand...

He's obviously just illustrating a point. Wouldn't it be nice if we could attack a problem - like our crumbling, outdated infrastructure - and just fix it! No BS from politicians fighting each other. No positiong for votes. Just fixing real problems...

It's just depressing that this country can't do ANYTHING with the congressional pandering and gridlock....
 
#5
#5
TruthIsOutThere said:
He's obviously just illustrating a point. Wouldn't it be nice if we could attack a problem - like our crumbling, outdated infrastructure - and just fix it! No BS from politicians fighting each other. No positiong for votes. Just fixing real problems...

It's just depressing that this country can't do ANYTHING with the congressional pandering and gridlock....
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He longs for the "enlightened dictators" of China. His illustration is nuts because it ignores all the negatives of the Chinese political approach to solving problems.

It's barely above "A Modest Proposal" level of solution but of course that was satire. I believe Friedman was serious.
 
#6
#6
volinbham said:
He longs for the "enlightened dictators" of China. His illustration is nuts because it ignores all the negatives of the Chinese political approach to solving problems.

It's barely above "A Modest Proposal" level of solution but of course that was satire. I believe Friedman was serious.
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Forget Friedman then - I can handle that. But I do get a slight sense of jealousy when I watch them make decisions and move on them. No arguing that they aren't mired in some serious problems of their own. But can't there be a middle ground?
 
#7
#7
volinbham said:
It's barely above "A Modest Proposal" level of solution but of course that was satire. I believe Friedman was serious.
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I actually heard it on the radio yesterday and had to write it down so I could look it up when home. He did not sound like a guy making a joke
 
#8
#8
TruthIsOutThere said:
Forget Friedman then - I can handle that. But I do get a slight sense of jealousy when I watch them make decisions and move on them. No arguing that they aren't mired in some serious problems of their own. But can't there be a middle ground?
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not sure there can be or should be. we are slow because power is diffused across so many parties and interests. to change that:

1) there needs to be an increase in unity of priorities
2) some groups have to lose power

I don't see either happening. So, we muddle along.
 
#11
#11
droski said:
what you are missing is that obama clearly knows better than the rest of us.
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that's the crux - to get the "action" on issues you have to surrender power to the government.

when it comes to mechanisms for picking winners and losers I'll take the market (with all its flaws) over politicians any time.
 
#13
#13
Friedman's actual quote:

Well, David, it's been decimated. It's been decimated by everything from the gerrymandering of political districts to cable television to an Internet where I can create a digital lynch mob against you from the left or right if I don't like where you're going, to the fact that money and politics is so out of control--really our Congress is a forum for legalized bribery. You know, that's really what, what it's come down to. So I don't--I, I--I'm worried about this, it's why I have fantasized--don't get me wrong--but that what if we could just be China for a day? I mean, just, just, just one day. You know, I mean, where we could actually, you know, authorize the right solutions, and I do think there is a sense of that, on, on everything from the economy to environment. I don't want to be China for a second, OK, I want my democracy to work with the same authority, focus and stick-to-itiveness. But right now we have a system that can only produce suboptimal solutions.
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Yes, Friedman's said plenty of dumb things over the years (particularly about us bringing freedom/democracy to Iraq), but here he's clearly talking about the bureaucracy and political horse trading that makes our government policy inefficient.

It's really not that remarkable a point.
 
#14
#14
Velo Vol said:
Friedman's actual quote:



Yes, Friedman's said plenty of dumb things over the years (particularly about us bringing freedom/democracy to Iraq), but here he's clearly talking about the bureaucracy and political horse trading that makes our government policy inefficient.

It's really not that remarkable a point.
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It goes back to an editorial he wrote many months ago.

http://www.nytimes.com/2009/09/09/opinion/09friedman.html

Watching both the health care and climate/energy debates in Congress, it is hard not to draw the following conclusion: There is only one thing worse than one-party autocracy, and that is one-party democracy, which is what we have in America today.
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One-party autocracy certainly has its drawbacks. But when it is led by a reasonably enlightened group of people, as China is today, it can also have great advantages. That one party can just impose the politically difficult but critically important policies needed to move a society forward in the 21st century. It is not an accident that China is committed to overtaking us in electric cars, solar power, energy efficiency, batteries, nuclear power and wind power. China’s leaders understand that in a world of exploding populations and rising emerging-market middle classes, demand for clean power and energy efficiency is going to soar. Beijing wants to make sure that it owns that industry and is ordering the policies to do that, including boosting gasoline prices, from the top down.

Our one-party democracy is worse. The fact is, on both the energy/climate legislation and health care legislation, only the Democrats are really playing. With a few notable exceptions, the Republican Party is standing, arms folded and saying “no.” Many of them just want President Obama to fail. Such a waste. Mr. Obama is not a socialist; he’s a centrist. But if he’s forced to depend entirely on his own party to pass legislation, he will be whipsawed by its different factions.
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It's a ridiculous claim to say that one:

1. R opposition amounts to a one party democracy and
2. such a system is worse than autocracy.

Finally, calling China's leadership "reasonably enlightened" is simply ludicrous when you think of the human rights violations and the lack of voice that the Chinese people have in major decisions impacting their lives and livelihoods.

Friedman is living in a fantasy world at best.
 
#15
#15
It's also ludicrous to make the claim that China's communist bureaucracy is efficient.
 
#17
#17
MG1968 said:
It's also ludicrous to make the claim that China's communist bureaucracy is efficient.
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It's too efficient, as it operates regardless of the negative costs or impacts of the decisions. I'm not saying there isn't corruption, but you better believe China is whooping ass economically, given where they started from and how they are positioning themselves for the future. 25 years ago, they didn't have a middle class. Now, they have more middle class than we have citizens (and illegals).
 
#18
#18
that's only because they realized that the communist economic model is unsustainable
 
#19
#19
MG1968 said:
that's only because they realized that the communist economic model is unsustainable
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Certainly, but they are still governing as a communist dictatorship by committee.

They constructed the world's largest dam and displaced 10's of thousands of people doing it in a short amount of time. Could you imagine the uproar that would bring here? When TVA did it, they had a hard time doing just displacing maybe a few hundred people over half a dozen dams.
 
#20
#20
IPorange said:
Certainly, but they are still governing as a communist dictatorship by committee.

They constructed the world's largest dam and displaced 10's of thousands of people doing it in a short amount of time. Could you imagine the uproar that would bring here? When TVA did it, they had a hard time doing just displacing maybe a few hundred people over half a dozen dams.
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That's exactly the point where Friedman is off the ranch.

These "improvements" are done in the "best interests" of the collective. As a result, individuals get screwed.

It's a crazy notion of progress if you ask me.

Soylent Green seemed like a good idea too :)
 
#21
#21
IPorange said:
It's too efficient, as it operates regardless of the negative costs or impacts of the decisions. I'm not saying there isn't corruption, but you better believe China is whooping ass economically, given where they started from and how they are positioning themselves for the future. 25 years ago, they didn't have a middle class. Now, they have more middle class than we have citizens (and illegals).
Click to expand...

china's "middle class" makes like $2k a year.
 
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