Waiting on medical care: 800,000 Canadians, 750,000 Brits, 90,000 New Zealanders...

[SavageOrangeJug]

Obamacare won't give you access to medical care. It will give you access to nothing more than a waiting list!

The one common characteristic of all single-payer health care systems is that they ration care. Sometimes they ration it explicitly, denying certain types of treatment altogether. More often, they ration it indirectly, imposing global budgets or other cost constraints that limit the availability of high-tech medical equipment or imposes long waits on patients seeking treatment. For example, at any given time, 750,000 Britons are waiting for admission to National Health Service hospitals and shortages force the NHS to cancel as many as 50,000 operations each year. Roughly 90,000 New Zealanders are facing similar waits. In Sweden, the wait for heart surgery can be as long as 25 weeks, while the average wait for hip replacement surgery is more than a year. In Canada more than 800,000 patients are currently on waiting lists for medical procedures. As the Canadian Supreme Court noted in striking down the part of Canada's single-payer law that prohibited private payment for health care, "Access to a waiting list is not access to health care." The court went on to note that "in some cases patients die as a result of waiting lists for public health care" and "many patients on non-urgent waiting lists are in pain and cannot fully enjoy any real quality of life."

SOURCE: Cato Institute

 

[CountVolcula]

Obama doesn't care about the average American. He is in the business of destroying this nation.

 

[WA_Vol]

Your stats don't represent the true picture. The majority of Canadians (80%) are happy with their healthcare while most in the U.S. want reform (7 out of 10):

http://www.cbc.ca/canada/story/2002/07/15/healthcare020715.html

About 80 per cent of Canadians say they're satisfied with their level of access to the health care system.

Canadians happy with primary health care, study says - The Globe and Mail

The largest survey on primary health care ever conducted in Canada found that most people have high praise for their family doctor, and a staggering 92 per cent would recommend their physician to a relative or friend.

http://www.medicinenet.com/script/main/art.asp?articlekey=40139

Medical Authors and Editors: Barbara K. Hecht, Ph.D. and Frederick Hecht, M.D. October 28, 2004 -- A very important report has been released today by the Commonwealth Fund concerning primary health care and the news is not good for the United States. Americans are most unhappy about the care they receive.

Most in U.S. Want Healthcare Reform, but Vary on Urgency

PRINCETON, NJ -- Seven in 10 Americans favor the passage of new healthcare reform legislation, but less than half (41%) say a new law needs to be passed this year.

 

[SavageOrangeJug]

Where are these 7 of 10 Americans?

I come in contact with a lot of people during the course of my day, from Chattanooga all through Western N.C.

I'm not meeting these 7/10.

 

[MG1968]

reform is one thing, a complete takeover by the federal government is another.

Canadians are happy because it's all they know. The people in North Korea probably think Kim Jong Il is a swell guy and that whatever problems they have are due to their own inadequacies.

 

[BigPapaVol]

reform is one thing, a complete takeover by the federal government is another.

Canadians are happy because it's all they know. The people in North Korea probably think Kim Jong Il is a swell guy and that whatever problems they have are due to their own inadequacies.

That didn't say Canadians are happy with their system. It said they are happy with their Primary Care physician. Who isn't? A generalist who is easy to drop and never cuts. The original post was about real quality of life issues and none of those retorts addresses it.
Posted via VolNation Mobile

 

[WA_Vol]

The only area the U.S. does well was preventative measures:

"Across multiple dimensions of care, the US stands out for its relatively poor performance," according to the study. "With the exception of preventive measures, the US primary care system ranked either last or significantly lower than the leaders on almost all dimensions of patient-centered care: access, coordination, and physician-patient experiences. These findings stand in stark contrast to US spending rates that outstrip those of the rest of the world."
"The performance in other countries indicates that it is possible to do better," continues the report. "However, moving to a higher-performing health care system is likely to require system redesign and innovative policies. "

http://www.medicinenet.com/script/main/art.asp?articlekey=40139

 

[WA_Vol]

A recent study conducted by USAToday, the Kaiser Family Foundation, and ABC News shows that Americans are growing increasingly unhappy with our health care system. 80% of poll respondents were particularly unhappy with the cost of health care in the U.S.

Americans Increasingly Unhappy With Health Care System

 

[BigPapaVol]

The only area the U.S. does well was preventative measures:



Americans Not Happy About Health Care - MedicineNet - Health and Medical Information Produced by Doctors

Any poll of this nature that suggests we only do well in a single area should generally be considered garbage.
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[utvolpj]

trade healthcare for 1 year with Canada and re-poll. I guarantee it would be fun to see. I've spent quite a bit of time working with Canadians and have yet to meet one who likes their "free" healthcare (past their primary care).

 

[WA_Vol]

I spent 3 weeks working in Canada and those I talked to were happy with their healthcare.

 

[KB5252]

I spent 3 weeks working in Canada and those I talked to were happy with their healthcare.

My guess is they would like it until they needed care for serious illness, then many of them seek treatment here in America. Also don't forget the fact that Canadian care labels some life saving treatment as elective. I heard a report from John Stossell (sp?) this weekend about a woman who had this happen to her. She lost around 60lbs because of a condition, sought treatment in Canada, was told this was an elective surgery and they would not cover it. She went to an advocate in Canada who specializes in getting care for those who fall through the cracks and he got her hooked up with treatment here. The doctor told her she may have had 2 or 3 weeks to live had she not gotten treatment.

There is also a serious shortage of family practitioners in Canada. Every so often they hold lotteries in some places so people have the privilege of getting lucky and hooked up with a family doctor. Let's not even talk about dental care. It is being reported that some people are resorting to doing their own dental work with pliers and vice grips because the wait for dentists is so long.

Bottom line is I highly doubt the numbers as given are correct. There are way too many cases of Canadians seeking treatment here for it to be so great there.

 

[joevol320]

Your stats don't represent the true picture. The majority of Canadians (80%) are happy with their healthcare while most in the U.S. want reform (7 out of 10):

Canadians mostly happy with health care system
Canadians happy with primary health care, study says - The Globe and Mail
Americans Not Happy About Health Care - MedicineNet - Health and Medical Information Produced by Doctors
Most in U.S. Want Healthcare Reform, but Vary on Urgency

why don't you ask the canadians that are sick. national healthcare is great if you're healthy and you don't need it. don't be a socialist.

 

[T-TownVol]

why don't you ask the canadians that are sick. national healthcare is great if you're healthy and you don't need it. don't be a socialist.

too late

 

[droski]

Americans Increasingly Unhappy With Health Care System

anything over free and people will be unhappy about the cost of virtually any good.

 

[rjd970]

My guess is they would like it until they needed care for serious illness, then many of them seek treatment here in America. Also don't forget the fact that Canadian care labels some life saving treatment as elective.

There is a flip side to this. I've also heard stories of Americans going to places like India to get major medical procedures done. They are setup in the ritz areas of the country (generally catering only to foreigners) and provide high quality care at very affordable prices. Even after factoring in the travel costs it is cheaper in most cases than getting it done here. Most of the doctors are U.S. educated.

Medical Tourism India, Health Tourism India

for instance:

For example, in April Madras Medical Mission, a Chennai-based hospital, successfully conducted a complex heart operation on an 87-year-old American patient at a reported cost of $8,000 (€7,000, £4,850) including the cost of his airfare and a month's stay in hospital. The patient claimed that a less complex operation in America had earlier cost him $40,000.

Also, it is not beyond insurance companies to deny treatment or label life saving treatments as elective either.

 

[utvolpj]

There is a flip side to this. I've also heard stories of Americans going to places like India to get major medical procedures done. They are setup in the ritz areas of the country (generally catering only to foreigners) and provide high quality care at very affordable prices. Even after factoring in the travel costs it is cheaper in most cases than getting it done here. Most of the doctors are U.S. educated.

Medical Tourism India, Health Tourism India

for instance:




Also, it is not beyond insurance companies to deny treatment or label life saving treatments as elective either.

that's great and all but very few in that country of 1 billion people have access to that (or any) care. Our poorest still do

 

[KB5252]

There is a flip side to this. I've also heard stories of Americans going to places like India to get major medical procedures done. They are setup in the ritz areas of the country (generally catering only to foreigners) and provide high quality care at very affordable prices. Even after factoring in the travel costs it is cheaper in most cases than getting it done here. Most of the doctors are U.S. educated.

Medical Tourism India, Health Tourism India

for instance:




Also, it is not beyond insurance companies to deny treatment or label life saving treatments as elective either.

Yes but here you can choose to pay for it out of pocket which is what the woman did, she came to America and paid for the procedure, it wasn't available to her in Canada.

And this was not some out of the ordinary procedure. This was a slow leak from an artery or blood vessel in the stomach area and she could not eat and keep food down, not to mention the pain. The doctor in America told her this would have been considered an emergency life threatening condition and she would have gone into surgery immediately with the amount of weight she had lost.

The problem in America is the high cost. There are many reasons for this, a small part is insurance companies. Other factors include paying for the indigent and illegals who do not pay. The hospital corporations are also to blame, the doctors themselves have little if any control over billing. The amount of money lost by Medicare type programs also factor in.

The big problem with Obama's plan is that it doesn't address all the issues and is very likely to contribute to even higher prices. They need to take a deep breath and look at the issue from all angles. This "quick fix" is not going to be the answer we need. In fact this "quick fix" Obama is proposing is more about government control than it is about health care.

 

[droski]

There is a flip side to this. I've also heard stories of Americans going to places like India to get major medical procedures done. They are setup in the ritz areas of the country (generally catering only to foreigners) and provide high quality care at very affordable prices. Even after factoring in the travel costs it is cheaper in most cases than getting it done here. Most of the doctors are U.S. educated.

Medical Tourism India, Health Tourism India

for instance:




Also, it is not beyond insurance companies to deny treatment or label life saving treatments as elective either.

my friends father is a doctor from india. he tells me that in mumbai that the average response time for a ambulance is 45 minutes. he forbid his daughter to travel there because he deemed the healthcare too poor.

 

[rjd970]

my friends father is a doctor from india. he tells me that in mumbai that the average response time for a ambulance is 45 minutes. he forbid his daughter to travel there because he deemed the healthcare too poor.

I would agree, I wouldn't want to be caught in an emergency over there either.

I'm referring to major medical procedures scheduled ahead of time. The quality of care is equal to what you could get here but it is at a fraction of the cost.

 

[rjd970]

Yes but here you can choose to pay for it out of pocket which is what the woman did, she came to America and paid for the procedure, it wasn't available to her in Canada.

But here you are also paying for insurance out of pocket and meeting deductibles, only to have to turn around and pay for the procedure anyway.

 

[KB5252]

But here you are also paying for insurance out of pocket and meeting deductibles, only to have to turn around and pay for the procedure anyway.

I understand that, sadly most people don't. They expect that because they paid their premiums that every cost should be covered by their insurance.

I am not saying that insurance companies don't need to be reformed. I am simply saying that any bill that does not address the other multiple factors at play here will be a very expensive endeavor doomed to fail if real reform is the intended outcome.

I happen to think that reforming health care is not the real agenda in this case, it is simply the end to a means, a tool to get the bridge to government run health care built. Obama has said as much in his own words (though he denies it now and tells us not to believe the unedited tape).

My point from above is that if Canada care is so great and the way to go why are people being denied the care they need to live in some cases? Why are they being denied timely care? The answer is that it is faulty, much like our system, but at least in our system you can CHOOSE to seek the care you need to live and pay out of pocket. In Canada you don't get that option and in some cases you die because of it.

Edit: Let me also add that in Canada that woman also paid for her insurance plan via taxes, they denied her and she would have died if she had not come here to seek treatment. So what's the difference?

 

[T-TownVol]

I understand that, sadly most people don't. They expect that because they paid their premiums that every cost should be covered by their insurance.

I am not saying that insurance companies don't need to be reformed. I am simply saying that any bill that does not address the other multiple factors at play here will be a very expensive endeavor doomed to fail if real reform is the intended outcome.

I happen to think that reforming health care is not the real agenda in this case, it is simply the end to a means, a tool to get the bridge to government run health care built. Obama has said as much in his own words (though he denies it now and tells us not to believe the unedited tape).

My point from above is that if Canada care is so great and the way to go why are people being denied the care they need to live in some cases? Why are they being denied timely care? The answer is that it is faulty, much like our system, but at least in our system you can CHOOSE to seek the care you need to live and pay out of pocket. In Canada you don't get that option and in some cases you die because of it.

"Single Payer System", is his true goal. It is documented.

 

[hndog609]

Tort reform would be a really good place to start for any realistic attempt at fixing our current system. In fact, I don't think you can fix it without addressing the issue.

 

[MG1968]

Tort reform would be a really good place to start for any realistic attempt at fixing our current system. In fact, I don't think you can fix it without addressing the issue.

and if tort reform as a whole were too difficult, adopting a loser-pays system would be a step in the right direction.