War in Ukraine

[LouderVol]

Huh, just magically decided to risk life and limb to revolt and take up arms against their government, who wasn't labeled the most corrupt Gov't in Europe, no, no, no, who was the bastion of freedom and democracy, so why would anyone ever consider revolting against such a gov't.

Lol. Might want to look up that corruption under Yanukoych and maybe revise your statement.....

Because the entire argument is that all of Ukraine was happy with Yanukoych it was just an American coup. Now you are arguing that corruption is a valid reason for rebellion.

The facts also dont follow your arguments logic. if you look at the corruption of the country that annexed those virtuous rebels. Hint Russia is more corrupt than Ukraine. Your argument would make sense if these break away regions were going to much less corrupt nations, and not the one nation that is more corrupt.

 

[LouderVol]

Haiti is the Ukraine of this hemsphere. So much corruption running through that country for outsiders to take advantage of.

I guess if he would have allowed the vaccines to come in to Haiti he would still be in power right now.

Also, how do a random group of Colombians get the means to pull off a stunt like this without some state sponsor?

Lol. What means do they need to storm a house after bribing 6 police men? Sounds like any cartel hit of a boss.

Especially considering the corruption already present in the police force its not wild conjecture to think it was one of the criminal elements currently holding their port. And not some state sponsored Uber American Seal Team Six type takedown with helicopters.

Again, any little wrong must point back to the US for you. No matter how many other Occam Razor qualified answers you have to ignore. As long as it blames the US you are willing to believe anything anyone puts in front of you.

 

[volgr]

No doubt you don’t want to see it. I’m sure you’re tired of seeing your homie orca getting their faces kicked in Larry

Your attempts to troll would be more enjoyable if the real world implications were not so dire. This isn't a football game where everyone goes home alive. Ukraine is basically throwing their men into a meat grinder to appease the West. Sure, they are killing some Russians on their way out, which I know weirdly excites many of you, but in doing so they are losing 4 or 5 Ukrainians for each Russian they take out.

All trolling aside (if you can), would a negotiated peace where Ukraine gives up some land not be preferable to this?

 

[LouderVol]

I'm not arguing the US was wrong or right. I am simply stating that Russia is following the rules or precedent that the US and UN have used. No mental gymnastics required. Very simple.

Except the case in Ukraine has nothing in common with Kosovo.....no neighbor annexed Serbian lands. Serbian officials werent killed or ran off before the freedom movement even began. The Serbian conflict started before a foreign nation got involved. Russia sparked the Dontesk rebels. The US or UN didnt spark the Kosovite rebellion. They responded to it. Russia was already in Dontesk.

Completely different.

 

[volgr]

Because the entire argument is that all of Ukraine was happy with Yanukoych it was just an American coup. Now you are arguing that corruption is a valid reason for rebellion.

No, you are arguing with yourself. I never said what you claim. I said the revolt must have magically appeared out of nowhere for no reason at all, as you insinuate. How many people are willing to risk life and limb revolting against their gov't for no good reason? You want to pick and choose where you start the timeline in this conflict. In your last reply, you decide to start the timeline when ethnic Russians in Ukraine decided to revolt and fight back against their government. Some in this tread want to start the timeline when Russia invaded Ukraine either in Feb or when they liberated Crimea. Whatever makes their argument work, that is when they decide to start the clock.

 

[LouderVol]

That is too broad a question. We have non-violent J6'ers currently rotting in a jail for disagreeing with the last US Election. Does the US kill or imprison those who question and disagree with him? The answer would have to be yes, because the question is too broad.

They arent in jail for disagreeing....jfc.

Again, any dumb arsed argument to make America look bad.

They are in jail for some combination of trespassing and destruction of government property.

 

[MontyPython]

Your claim was, "Set example by torturing and executing the remaining citizens that didn't move away." That is entirely false and ridiculous. Have Ukrainians been tortured and executed? Very likely. Is it more likely that has taken place by local militia's who have seen their friends and family tortured or harassed over the last 8 years? Very likely. This to say nothing of the grotesque torture and execution videos (that Ukrainians proudly post on their social media) of Russian/Allied soldiers and local citizens who were said to have helped Russian forces (which you guys conveniently never mention).

Again, this is being used as an emotional argument (one sided at that) due to your lack of a factual argument.

This is either amazing ignorance on your part or unfettered stupidity.

Guessing both.

Here's just a fraction of the torturing, etc...

"...was raped, and burns from iron on a patient's back and stomach. The patient told me two wires from a car battery were attached to his groin and he was told to stand on a wet rag". In addition to the BBC, the Human Rights Watch UN Human Rights Monitoring Mission in Ukraine has reported on torture and "disappearances" carried out by Russian occupation forces in the region. One resident stated: "In Kherson, now people go missing all the time (...) there is a war going on, only this part is without bombs."[165]

Kherson's elected Ukrainian mayor has compiled a list of more than 300 people who had been kidnapped by Russian forces as of 15 May 2022. According to The Times, in the building housing the Russian occupation authorities, the screams of the tortured could be frequently heard throughout the corridors.[166]

On 22 July Human Rights Watch published a report documenting 42 cases of torture, unlawful detention and enforced disappearance of civilians in the Russian-occupied areas of Kherson and Zaporizhzhia regions.[167] Witnesses described torture through prolonged beatings and electric shocks causing injuries including broken bones, broken teeth, severe burns, concussions, cuts and bruises. They also described being kept blindfolded and handcuffed for the entire duration of the detention, and being released only after having signed statements or recorded videos in which they pledge to cooperate or urge others to cooperate with the Russian forces.[167] Ukrainian officials estimated that at least 600 people had been forcibly disappeared in the Kherson region since the Russian invasion.[167]

Teachers in Russian-occupied areas were forced by the military to teach in the Russian language and were tortured for using Ukrainian.[168]

 

[Burhead]

If there were any time for Georgia and Moldova to take back their land its now with Russia tied up.

 

[volgr]

The US or UN didnt spark the Kosovite rebellion. They responded to it.

There is no way for you to know that. You assume that to be the case. We spark rebellions across the World. We spark conflicts around the World. So that we CAN respond to them. What are the chances, we didn't spark that rebellion and were just "responding to it"?

Regardless, the 4 regions that recently voted to annex and join Russia, followed the Kosovo model. The Kosovo model, which Russia and others argued against at the time, was ultimately accepted by the UN (and the West).

 

[Burhead]

Surovikin doesn't sound optimistic about Kherson.

 

[LouderVol]

Your attempts to troll would be more enjoyable if the real world implications were not so dire. This isn't a football game where everyone goes home alive. Ukraine is basically throwing their men into a meat grinder to appease the West. Sure, they are killing some Russians on their way out, which I know weirdly excites many of you, but in doing so they are losing 4 or 5 Ukrainians for each Russian they take out.

All trolling aside (if you can), would a negotiated peace where Ukraine gives up some land not be preferable to this?

It would be preferable to Putin, and maybe to you. But it may not be preferable for Ukraine.

And lol at your k/d ratio. Ukraine has about 500k men in service. With 60k dead Russians and your 5x dead Ukrainians that would be 300k dead Ukrainians. That is laughably wrong. They wouldnt be able to guard their borders at all. Yet alone think about another attack.

As usual willing to buy whatever clear Russian bs you find without applying the least bit of critical thinking.

 

[volgr]

And lol at your k/d ratio. Ukraine has about 500k men in service. With 60k dead Russians and your 5x dead Ukrainians that would be 300k dead Ukrainians. That is laughably wrong. They wouldnt be able to guard their borders at all.

What part of the equation could you change and get a more realistic Ukraine death count?

 

[volgr]

They are in jail for some combination of trespassing and destruction of government property.

There you go, now we agree.

 

[LouderVol]

There is no way for you to know that. You assume that to be the case. We spark rebellions across the World. We spark conflicts around the World. So that we CAN respond to them. What are the chances, we didn't spark that rebellion and were just "responding to it"?

Regardless, the 4 regions that recently voted to annex and join Russia, followed the Kosovo model. The Kosovo model, which Russia and others argued against at the time, was ultimately accepted by the UN (and the West).

Lol. There are any number of ways to "know" it to at least the same level of evidence as you have to argue that we did do it.

It's the Balkans they have been tearing themselves apart for thousands of years. You dont need to look any deeper than the demographics and history over there to find the #1/2 cause of violence that existed long before the US or any of the west existed.

Its grossly insulting to the inhabitants of the region to downplay their suffering and their history to just assign blame to the US. It speaks to a deep seated irrational belief system that relies on fantasticism over even a rudimentary acceptance of history.

 

[volgr]

This is either amazing ignorance on your part or unfettered stupidity.

When you have evidence to prove your claim, let me know..."Set example by torturing and executing the remaining citizens that didn't move away". Until then, I'd watch some of the drone footage coming out of Kyiv as I know your love for drones is quite deep and you never really got to see your much hyped Switchblade drones do much of anything.

 

[LouderVol]

What part of the equation could you change and get a more realistic Ukraine death count?

At first I would want a clarification. Is your number assuming military losses only?

Assuming it does:

The "5x" part. I could see it being equal with the advantages Russia has. But the long stalemate and counter offensive more than equalized any early advantages Russia had.

Even including civilians I would say at worst the Ukraine total dead are 3x Russian losses, being equal dead soldiers, and 2x civilian losses. The civilian losses are based on historical norms without assuming genocide or specifc targeting.

 

[LouderVol]

There you go, now we agree.

There was definitely some destruction/theft of government property there.

 

[volgr]

Lol. There are any number of ways to "know" it to at least the same level of evidence as you have to argue that we did do it.

I'm not saying we did do it, I am saying considering our track record, there is a decent chance we had some type of involvement. But, maybe this was the exception. There is no way to really know unless you FOIA old documents, which I don't think has been done. Like I said, regardless, it doesn't impact the vote in the 4 Ukrainian regions being respected and accepted by the UN (if they being consistent).

 

[volgr]

At first I would want a clarification. Is your number assuming military losses only?

Assuming it does:

The "5x" part. I could see it being equal with the advantages Russia has. But the long stalemate and counter offensive more than equalized any early advantages Russia had.

Even including civilians I would say at worst the Ukraine total dead are 3x Russian losses, being equal dead soldiers, and 2x civilian losses. The civilian losses are based on historical norms without assuming genocide or specifc targeting.

Russia had no advantage to start. They likely suffered their worst k/d ratio early in this conflict. Also, you have to separate out Russian deaths vs local milita/chechens/wagner/etc. Ukraine was already at 3-4x before their costly counter offensives. 5x may be too low at this point. I'd say, rough estimate, 70-80k dead Ukrainian service members and it wouldn't surprise me if it was closer to 100k at this point. Another 50-60k likely wounded and unable to return. Russia only, probably 8-10k dead, another 5-8k wounded. Total Russian losses, including militia/wagner/etc is probably 20-25k dead.

Those numbers seem to be close to what other fair commentators have estimated.

 

[DonjoVol]

Not caring isn’t the same as “absolutely no problem with”
i disagree with Zelensky doing that and his country can decide what to do with it. But he’s not the one who invaded a sovereign country either. If Zelensky invaded Russia unilaterally id say the same things I would about Putin’s invasion

LMAO. Yeah right troll.

 

[Rickyvol77]

LMAO. Yeah right troll.

I would. And your name calling and ridiculous use of “lmao” doesn’t change that. Logical thinking not emotionally stunted arguments

 

[AM64]

Perhaps you should read up on Ariel Henry and how he's basically installed himself as a dictator.

When hasn't Haiti been ruled by a dictator when you get right down to it? Sham elections and false titles don't make for legitimacy. Funny how one end of a Caribbean island even with Spanish colonial history can have some semblance of sanity and the other end is off the charts Loony Tunes. Haiti's problems started long ago when the slaves got organized and threw the French out ... and found that none of the slaves or their descendants has a clue on how to run anything.

 

[AM64]

I care that people are being needlessly slaughtered over there when it is very likely a peace deal could have been reached if not for US involvement. I care about idiots like you trying to drag my Country into WW3.

Wow! "Peace" with a gun pointed at your head and your land stolen is better than a fight? I'm sure glad most people don't think that way; despotism would reign around the globe. Rocket Man should just move south and S Koreans should just hand it over, be peaceful, and avoid a slaughter?

 

[Rasputin_Vol]

If there were any time for Georgia and Moldova to take back their land its now with Russia tied up.

Sounds like you are advocating for escalation.

When will diplomacy become an option?

 

[AM64]

Sounds like you are advocating for escalation.

When will diplomacy become an option?

Maybe when belligerents quit trying to steal land at the point of a gun. Most of us learned early on that you leave people alone and they don't hold a grudge against you. Pootin signed an agreement and tried to manufacture a reason (with lies and terrorism) to void it; when that didn't work, he resorted to total force.