War in Ukraine

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#50,152
LouderVol said:
Oh we very much did try to import our system of government in a very failed manner, and we didnt care. In pretty much every new "democracy" we established a new tyrant took power for decades with very few elections thrown in. They were only democratic in as much as they werent Communists.
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I understand your point of view, and generally agree with the results you point out. However, it's always seemed the failure has more to do with the culture of the place than the attempt to democratize the place. When you are working in an area of tribal or tribal like allegiances and warlords (or similar strongmen), the odds of fixing the problem with democracy are slim to none. Our version seems to have been to find the least bad of the strongest and go with him as the new guy in charge ... and it generally blows up in our face. Added to that, we just suck at the process and always have as Burdick and Lederer point out in The Ugly American.

The Soviets weren't interested in democracy; it was an easy process for them, after you soften up a base with the promises of communism, just find the biggest compliant thug and use the converts to implement a dictatorship - so much easier than installing democracy.
 
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Interesting. No surprise that Russia's neighbors are supplying the most (%), as they know it could be them next.

But also the percentage of the total spending. By far the greatest share here comes from the US, at 3.6%, so if you averaged the amount of all the countries, it would be on the lower side of the range. I'm guessing ~6%?

So it would be accurate to say that this war is not Russia versus NATO, but Russia versus 6% of NATO.

 
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#50,156
#50,156
White House says North Korea supplying Russia with artillery shells

WASHINGTON, Nov 2 (Reuters) - The United States has information that indicates North Korea is covertly supplying Russia with a "significant" number of artillery shells for its war in Ukraine, White House National Security spokesperson John Kirby said on Wednesday.

Kirby told a virtual briefing that North Korea was attempting to obscure the shipments by funneling them through countries in the Middle East and North Africa.

"Our indications are that the DPRK is covertly supplying and we are going to monitor to see whether the shipments are received," Kirby said, adding that Washington would consult with the United Nations on accountability issues over the shipments.
 
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MontyPython said:
White House says North Korea supplying Russia with artillery shells

WASHINGTON, Nov 2 (Reuters) - The United States has information that indicates North Korea is covertly supplying Russia with a "significant" number of artillery shells for its war in Ukraine, White House National Security spokesperson John Kirby said on Wednesday.

Kirby told a virtual briefing that North Korea was attempting to obscure the shipments by funneling them through countries in the Middle East and North Africa.

"Our indications are that the DPRK is covertly supplying and we are going to monitor to see whether the shipments are received," Kirby said, adding that Washington would consult with the United Nations on accountability issues over the shipments.
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Why would they need to funnel them through the ME and Africa when NK and Russia share a border? Doesn’t make sense.
 
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#50,161
#50,161
DonjoVol said:
So according to what you said you should be supporting these movements as you would Moldova joining Romania.
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I am supportive of them once the Russians leave now. I dont care what their reason for wanting to leave is or when it started. The Russians are directly involved with boots on the ground, that makes it a no go. It's why I never fully supported a free Kurdistan if we had boots on the ground. I am all for a Kurdistan, taking from one or all of Turky, Syria, Iraq, and maybe Iran and a few others. But not with the involvement of our troops.

The issue with outside involvement is it starts Balkanization that is largely unsustainable, and usually artificial. Every single person or group doesnt need to be their own nation, part of being a nation is being able to support themselves. If they cant do it, they dont deserve it. You have to take the first couple steps on your own without direct foreign intervention. Take our revolution for instance, the French didnt get directly involved at the start. It took a couple years of us proving we could hold up our end of the bargain. That seems reasonable.

Otherwise it just reads as a foreign false flag if the foreign troops are there at the start of the "revolution". Its really just an invasion that hides behind a vocal extremely small minority. Which is no different than how a lot of colonizing worked

We could invade Moscow tomorrow, and find 10k people to set up an "independent" government that doesnt like Putin or Russia. That wouldnt make it real. Heck you could invade a couple city blocks of Seattle and find some people to justify overthrowing our government. Doesnt mean they should be their own country.
 
#50,162
#50,162
LouderVol said:
I am supportive of them once the Russians leave now. I dont care what their reason for wanting to leave is or when it started. The Russians are directly involved with boots on the ground, that makes it a no go. It's why I never fully supported a free Kurdistan if we had boots on the ground. I am all for a Kurdistan, taking from one or all of Turky, Syria, Iraq, and maybe Iran and a few others. But not with the involvement of our troops.

The issue with outside involvement is it starts Balkanization that is largely unsustainable, and usually artificial. Every single person or group doesnt need to be their own nation, part of being a nation is being able to support themselves. If they cant do it, they dont deserve it. You have to take the first couple steps on your own without direct foreign intervention. Take our revolution for instance, the French didnt get directly involved at the start. It took a couple years of us proving we could hold up our end of the bargain. That seems reasonable.

Otherwise it just reads as a foreign false flag if the foreign troops are there at the start of the "revolution". Its really just an invasion that hides behind a vocal extremely small minority. Which is no different than how a lot of colonizing worked

We could invade Moscow tomorrow, and find 10k people to set up an "independent" government that doesnt like Putin or Russia. That wouldnt make it real. Heck you could invade a couple city blocks of Seattle and find some people to justify overthrowing our government. Doesnt mean they should be their own country.
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Once again you're ignoring the history of those regions. They had independence movements in the past and prior to the break up of the Soviet Union. Each region, especially Abkhazia and South Ossetia, have their own history as well. Plus if Russian troops were asked or invited by those regions to come in then you and others should have no problem as it wouldn't be an invasion. Remember it is invasions of other countries you guys and gals said you had a problem with.

Plus like NC Fisher said if Ukraine wants to be a puppet state of the West then these regions have every right to be puppet states of Russia if that is what they desire. You guys and gals can't be okay with one and not the other. Unless you want to openly that you are being a hypocrite.

So I'll remind you again of a few items.

1. Transnistria was seeking to break away from the Moldova SSR prior to the break up of the Soviet Union. This was not inspired by Russia. Therefore, you shouldn't have a problem with their independence movement.
2. Abkhazia and South Ossetia had independence movements dating back decades ago. And the Abkhaz and Ossetian people are a separate and distinct ethnic group from Georgian people. They both have a long history of not getting along with Georgians. Putin nor the country known as Russia was behind those independence movements decades ago or the ones more recently. Therefore you should have no issue.
 
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#50,163
#50,163
DonjoVol said:
Once again you're ignoring the history of those regions. They had independence movements in the past and prior to the break up of the Soviet Union. Each region, especially Abkhazia and South Ossetia, have their own history as well. Plus if Russian troops were asked or invited by those regions to come in then you and others should have no problem as it wouldn't be an invasion. Remember it is invasions of other countries you guys and gals said you had a problem with.

Plus like NC Fisher said if Ukraine wants to be a puppet state of the West then these regions have every right to be puppet states of Russia if that is what they desire. You guys and gals can't be okay with one and not the other. Unless you want to openly that you are being a hypocrite.

So I'll remind you again of a few items.

1. Transnistria was seeking to break away from the Moldova SSR prior to the break up of the Soviet Union. This was not inspired by Russia. Therefore, you shouldn't have a problem with their independence movement.
2. Abkhazia and South Ossetia had independence movements dating back decades ago. And the Abkhaz and Ossetian people are a separate and distinct ethnic group from Georgian people. They both have a long history of not getting along with Georgians. Putin nor the country known as Russia was behind those independence movements decades ago or the ones more recently. Therefore you should have no issue.
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1. Yes the Russians/ Soviets, make up your mind, were responsible. There were already Russian/Soviet troops there before the break up. Which is how they were able to interfere. That civil war started in a lot bigger of an area of Moldova and even included another group whose name escapes me. That group folded, and Transnistria was set to fold except for direct intervention of the Russians/Soviets.
2. What happened to those independence movements under the USSR? Why did they suddenly become valid after its collapse? Why did Russia directly play a part in someone else's nation since these regions werent part of the USSR or Russia anymore?

Can I invite the Russians to come liberate me? Or is that an invasion by Russia? Can my apartment complex? What about my town?

Maybe the whole city of Atlanta? That's far more people than are involved in any of these break away Russian satellites. There has been more than 100 years of rebellious history here going back to before the Civil War, and you can easily find some people willing to set up a separatist government, heck Abrams is running for governor and she lead her own office after losing, so it's already in place.

^would that be a valid opprotunity for liberation for Russia, or anyone?

What about Germany invading Kalingrad. Kicking out the Russians. Installing their own independent government that holds a referendum that then votes to join Germany again? Would that be an invasion or a rebellion?

If the Russians are there to satellite the independents how is it not an invasion if the Russians are fighting the host nation?
 
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#50,164
#50,164
LouderVol said:
1. Yes the Russians/ Soviets, make up your mind, were responsible. There were already Russian/Soviet troops there before the break up. Which is how they were able to interfere. That civil war started in a lot bigger of an area of Moldova and even included another group whose name escapes me. That group folded, and Transnistria was set to fold except for direct intervention of the Russians/Soviets.
2. What happened to those independence movements under the USSR? Why did they suddenly become valid after its collapse? Why did Russia directly play a part in someone else's nation since these regions werent part of the USSR or Russia anymore?

Can I invite the Russians to come liberate me? Or is that an invasion by Russia? Can my apartment complex? What about my town?

Maybe the whole city of Atlanta? That's far more people than are involved in any of these break away Russian satellites. There has been more than 100 years of rebellious history here going back to before the Civil War, and you can easily find some people willing to set up a separatist government, heck Abrams is running for governor and she lead her own office after losing, so it's already in place.

^would that be a valid opprotunity for liberation for Russia, or anyone?

What about Germany invading Kalingrad. Kicking out the Russians. Installing their own independent government that holds a referendum that then votes to join Germany again? Would that be an invasion or a rebellion?

If the Russians are there to satellite the independents how is it not an invasion if the Russians are fighting the host nation?
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Lol. Now you are being overly dramatic and countering the debate with whataboutisms and non sequiturs. More than likely due to the fact you were unable to refute any of the facts that I laid out previously.

Go back and read my last few previous posts carefully. You'll find the answer to some of your questions there. Now if you are unable to comprehend anything that doesn't align with a pro western narrative then just admit it.
 
#50,166
#50,166
LouderVol said:
Ugh in 2015 Crimea wasnt officially in ukraine, so I can see it a bit funny from his POV. They bit the hand that waters them and then got upset that they no longer get water.

I would like just one instance of a breakaway rebel region occupied by a foreign nation still getting supplied by the nation it broke away from. Because this isnt a Ukraine/West issue. It's a they chose to eff around and now they find out issue.
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Not according to Zelensky. Zelensky said, "Ukraine will return freedom to Crimea and all the Ukrainian people on the peninsula." Yet he mocked and ridiculed them for lacking potable water. Zelensky, Sarah Ashton-Cirillo, and Sarah's girls on Volnation have always said the people of Crimea are oppressed and Crimea was taken by gunpoint and not by a legitimate referendum. It's strange to see a video of a president mocking people who he says are his own, because they suffered from a shortage of potable water. I've never seen a rabbi mock the people in concentration camps because they lacked food. Have you? Yet, there's Zelensky mocking people he claims as his own for doing without water because of his own policies.
 
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JuicyBrucey said:
Not according to Zelensky. Zelensky said, "Ukraine will return freedom to Crimea and all the Ukrainian people on the peninsula." Yet he mocked and ridiculed them for lacking potable water. Zelensky, Sarah Ashton-Cirillo, and Sarah's girls on Volnation have always said the people of Crimea are oppressed and Crimea was taken by gunpoint and not by a legitimate referendum. It's strange to see a video of a president mocking people who he says are his own, because they suffered from a shortage of potable water. I've never seen a rabbi mock the people in concentration camps because they lacked food. Have you? Yet, there's Zelensky mocking people he claims as his own for doing without water because of his own policies.
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"Will return" means that it's not currently part of Ukraine. At least to me. So no I dont see why he would consider them actively part of Ukraine when occupied by Russia.

Is it in poor taste? Absolutely. Should he have said it? Probably not. Can I understand where he is coming from. Yes.

Being at war changes everything. Especially when you are attacked by a stronger foe.
 
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#50,168
DonjoVol said:
Lol. Now you are being overly dramatic and countering the debate with whataboutisms and non sequiturs. More than likely due to the fact you were unable to refute any of the facts that I laid out previously.

Go back and read my last few previous posts carefully. You'll find the answer to some of your questions there. Now if you are unable to comprehend anything that doesn't align with a pro western narrative then just admit it.
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Overly dramatic? In what? Presenting situations, like you were doing, to see if you are consistent?

I have been consistent, you have not.

I believe if an invading army causes/supports an independence movement it does not justify their invasion or make the rebellion real. I went thru and pointed out examples, some real, some not, where I held that standard.
 
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#50,170
#50,170
LouderVol said:
Overly dramatic? In what? Presenting situations, like you were doing, to see if you are consistent?

I have been consistent, you have not.

I believe if an invading army causes/supports an independence movement it does not justify their invasion or make the rebellion real. I went thru and pointed out examples, some real, some not, where I held that standard.
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Lol. I have been consistent. You refuse to acknowledge historical facts that I have presented to you because they DO NOT fit the pro Western narrative that you want to believe. Either you refuse to learn new information or you lack reading comprehension skills. Which one is it?

And yes you are being overly dramatic when you respond with not one but multiple whataboutisms which have absolutely nothing to do with our historical debate at hand.

And it's simple. Russia hasn't invaded Transnistria, Abkhazia, or South Ossetia. Therefore you should have no problem with their independence movements.
 
#50,171
#50,171
LouderVol said:
"Will return" means that it's not currently part of Ukraine. At least to me. So no I dont see why he would consider them actively part of Ukraine when occupied by Russia.

Is it in poor taste? Absolutely. Should he have said it? Probably not. Can I understand where he is coming from. Yes.

Being at war changes everything. Especially when you are attacked by a stronger foe.
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Who is the stronger foe? Russia? I thought they were the "trailer park of the world"?

So you mean to tell us that we have been giving Ukraine advanced weaponry and "game changers" and that they are unable to beat this "trailer park of the world"?
 
#50,172
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Kremlin Coup
Obese General
Kherson
Switchblade drones
HIMARS
Game changers
Blood Cancer
Pancreatic Cancer
Parkinsons
Lukashenko needs breath mints
I heard it on the evening news
Trailer park of the world
Ghost of Kiev
Kievan Rus
Soviet Union still exists
The 40 billion will bring Russia to its knees
Tooth Fairy
Pootin
Pootin Stooges
Larry Moe Curly
 
#50,175
#50,175
DonjoVol said:
Kremlin Coup
Obese General
Kherson
Switchblade drones
HIMARS
Game changers
Blood Cancer
Pancreatic Cancer
Parkinsons
Lukashenko needs breath mints
I heard it on the evening news
Trailer park of the world
Ghost of Kiev
Kievan Rus
Soviet Union still exists
The 40 billion will bring Russia to its knees
Tooth Fairy
Pootin
Pootin Stooges
Larry Moe Curly
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Going as planned
Ukraine attacking their own citizens
Sanctions not hurting Russia
West at fault
Zelensky is a dictator
Iraq
Afghanistan
Cuba
Europeans freezing
Multi-racial Slavs
Historically part of Russia
Methodically advancing in Donbas
Ukraine suffering 10 times as many casualties
West about to collapse
Russia fighting NATO
Putin showing restraint
No proof referendums weren’t legitimate
US backed coup
Nazis
Ukraine bots
Militarily industrial complex
Fight to the last Ukrainian

Feel free to add more
 
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