War on the Press

[OrangeEmpire]

CNN

WASHINGTON (AP) -- Attorney General Alberto Gonzales said Sunday he believes journalists can be prosecuted for publishing classified information, citing an obligation to national security.

The nation's top law enforcer also said the government will not hesitate to track telephone calls made by reporters as part of a criminal leak investigation, but officials would not do so routinely and randomly.

What other governments in history have gone to war against the domestic press?

Is this a good sign?

Should the government's paranoia about getting caught in lies and scandals and illegal operations trump the Constitution?

Is this retribution for the press tattling on the BA for illegal spying programs?

 

[CSpindizzy]

So the Executive is kicking down the doors of the Legislative, spying on the free press, snooping on phone calls.....

USSR

United States Socialist Republic

 

[OrangeEmpire]

USSR

United States Socialist Republic

Keep going, smoke will have fun with this, he loves 30's era Germany.

 

[CSpindizzy]

I got my pith helmet and jackboots shined.

 

[OWB]

CNN
What other governments in history have gone to war against the domestic press?

Is this a good sign?

Should the government's paranoia about getting caught in lies and scandals and illegal operations trump the Constitution?

Is this retribution for the press tattling on the BA for illegal spying programs?

And so it begins. See, this is why I have a problem with the government doing things like looking at phone records illegally. It gives them the sense that they can do anything. Give an inch, they take a mile. I guess that the Bush administration is going to do what they want and we have no say. Bush is the decider. :crazy:

I'm sure that volinbham will be along shortly to tell me that the government has been spying on the media for a while now and it's perfectly fine given today's circumstances with terrorist and all.

 

[volinbham]

And so it begins. See, this is why I have a problem with the government doing things like looking at phone records illegally. It gives them the sense that they can do anything. Give an inch, they take a mile. I guess that the Bush administration is going to do what they want and we have no say. Bush is the decider. :crazy:

I'm sure that volinbham will be along shortly to tell me that the government has been spying on the media for a while now and it's perfectly fine given today's circumstances with terrorist and all.

No need - you've mischaracterized my thoughts just fine :biggrin2:

I don't agree with the government going after the press.

As a question for debate though - is there a limit on what information the press can print? Does the press have a "right" to print classified information? Do they have immunity?

 

[orange+white=heaven]

The real message being sent in this most recent statement is not really so much "We're gonna get you for printing classified info" so much as it is "Beware, we are coming after your ability to find and keep confidential any sources you may want to contact".

Without the ability to cultivate sources with information about what might actually be going on with an issue, reporters become nothing more than stenographers at press conferences. Many, if not most, politicians would likely prefer that kind of a setup... but it is a poor excuse for a free press.

 

[volinbham]

The real message being sent in this most recent statement is not really so much "We're gonna get you for printing classified info" so much as it is "Beware, we are coming after your ability to find and keep confidential any sources you may want to contact".

Without the ability to cultivate sources with information about what might actually be going on with an issue, reporters become nothing more than stenographers at press conferences. Many, if not most, politicians would likely prefer that kind of a setup... but it is a poor excuse for a free press.

Agreed

 

[smokedog#3]

W and his hitler clones are willing to do anything, just because they can get away with it. ost-20645-1119625378:

 

[CSpindizzy]

It's all an elaborate operation to either cut off or discredit the free press. The whole CBS Memogate was nothing but one of the oldest political tricks in the book.....if the media is your enemy and they're getting close to either the truth or some damning info, throw them a bone of some completely worthless and inaccurate info. CBS fell for it hook, line, and sinker. It made the media as a whole look foolish and discredited anything else that came out.

 

[volinbham]

It's all an elaborate operation to either cut off or discredit the free press. The whole CBS Memogate was nothing but one of the oldest political tricks in the book.....if the media is your enemy and they're getting close to either the truth or some damning info, throw them a bone of some completely worthless and inaccurate info. CBS fell for it hook, line, and sinker. It made the media as a whole look foolish and discredited anything else that came out.

Interesting theory that the administration rather than the democrats were responsible - any proof? (Not an attack -- just wondering)

 

[Lexvol]

All very interesting discussion. I found it fascinating that as Vincente Fox is in the States his staff limits press freedom b y demanding that no questions be asked about current immigration debates in the Senate. Where is the outrage?

It doesn't exist because free press is really just a pipe dream. The US press is probably as free as free can be. However, when it comes to leaking national security can any one individual divulge and then hide behind their occupation?

My theory is once someone releases any information deemed classified by the government, then they face those charges as an individual, and can no longer hide behind occupation. After all, a journalist holds position any higher than the average concerned citizen.

 

[CSpindizzy]

Interesting theory that the administration rather than the democrats were responsible - any proof? (Not an attack -- just wondering)

There is no proof. There probably never will. You'd figure the US government would have gone full force after government forgery. You'd figure there would be full pursuit on document forgery of military papers and involving the President of the United States. Instead the whole issue was dropped.

Who had the most to gain from this? What was the end result? What happened to that 'lady' who supposedly passed the doucments? Nothing ever happened. Convenient that afer the media was discredited as was the whole war dodging issue, nothing was ever pursued.

 

[CSpindizzy]

My theory is once someone releases any information deemed classified by the government, then they face those charges as an individual, and can no longer hide behind occupation. After all, a journalist holds position any higher than the average concerned citizen.

What is to stop any government leader from abusing those powers all in the name of national security? Realize that much of what Nixon was slammed for was originally covered by 'national security'. It goes back to the Pentagon Papers.

National security is not a blank check to do whatever the hell you want. Just as you say illegal activity shouldn't allow a reporter to hide behind freedom of the press, it goes the same for government leaders committing illegal acts and hiding behind national security.

 

[volinbham]

I'll again preface my comments by saying that I think what Gonzalez said is wrong - the govt. shouldn't be threatening the press.

But to follow on Lexvol's point - where is the check/balance for the press? Should they be allowed to leak classified information with no consequence? Why should they have immunity that no other institution has?

Does the press get to decide what should be kept secret and what should not?

 

[volinbham]

There is no proof. There probably never will. You'd figure the US government would have gone full force after government forgery. You'd figure there would be full pursuit on document forgery of military papers and involving the President of the United States. Instead the whole issue was dropped.

Who had the most to gain from this? What was the end result? What happened to that 'lady' who supposedly passed the doucments? Nothing ever happened. Convenient that afer the media was discredited as was the whole war dodging issue, nothing was ever pursued.

Proof? We don't need no stinkin' proof. :biggrin2:

 

[Lexvol]

What is to stop any government leader from abusing those powers all in the name of national security? Realize that much of what Nixon was slammed for was originally covered by 'national security'. It goes back to the Pentagon Papers.

National security is not a blank check to do whatever the hell you want. Just as you say illegal activity shouldn't allow a reporter to hide behind freedom of the press, it goes the same for government leaders committing illegal acts and hiding behind national security.

When dealing withCLASSIFIED information everyone is accountable.

 

[CSpindizzy]

Proof? We don't need no stinkin' proof. :biggrin2:

On the flipside, where was the proof to exonerate W? He didn't exactly clear his name on the matter either.

 

[CSpindizzy]

Does the press get to decide what should be kept secret and what should not?

I'm not saying the press gets a free pass. I'm saying that someone has to hold the government accountable to their actions. Read about the media in the 1780's and 1790's of this country. Jefferson and Hamilton, on opposite sides of the spectrum, both thought the media was the only saving grace for many government excesses. They both believed this so much they both bought papers either directly or in proxy to 'shed light on the ills of the others'. During Washington's administration Jefferson himself left valuable documents exposed on his desk or on tavern tables for all to see. Hamilton and his supporters saw the same action. Washington actually had to play make-up with both the French and British because of the leaking to the media (their own papers) by many 'well respected' founding fathers.

 

[volinbham]

On the flipside, where was the proof to exonerate W? He didn't exactly clear his name on the matter either.

To me this is a major reason why I highly doubt W was the source of the forged document. He can't prove he didn't get preferential treatment (I would guess he did). Why take the risk with an elaborate ruse when in the end it doesn't prove your case? Also, I think the majority of people did believe he got a break even before the CBS story. Why give that case more ammunition.

To me its like those that suggest Coke brought out New Coke knowing there would be a backlash so they could reintroduce old Coke as Coke Classic and gain more market share. Interesting conspiracy theory but just not true.

It's much more likely that some dem operative was behind it. Don't forget, Joe Lockhart was telling Mapes about the letter. So W & Co. would have had to dupe the dem operatives first and use them to get to CBS and then depend on CBS not checking the facts, etc...

Bottomline CBS wanted the story to be told a certain way - they already made up their minds and got sloppy with their journalism. No matter who was behind it, CBS is ultimately responsible for the damage they did to their own credibility.

 

[CSpindizzy]

It's obvious. He can't prove his case because he doesn't want to. His case is questionable. So if your story is bad, what do you do? Make the other side look worse. Honestly, if Bush wanted to clear his tarnished name, why didn't he? They released records in spurts and only because they had to. The records did not prove his case. In many cases the records caused more questions. So to take the heat off of him, it would be completely logical to make the ones digging up the dirt to look like fools. And that is what happened to CBS. Once CBS bit, they looked like idiots and the story essentially died. Bush got what he wanted. The story is still there but no one will touch it because 1)it doesn't matter since he's not running again and 2)anyone who touches it will look like fools as well. Again, where is the proof? Why did the federal government not investigate when law requires? Who came out on top of this? Who had the most to gain?

 

[GAVol]

I think you're right to a certain extent. Once the story got completely bungled by CBS, it became radioactive and no mainstream media was going to touch it.

That being said, I think it's pretty clear that this was 3rd party trying to discredit someone in a political campaign; nothing more. Sort of like the Swift Boat Veterans, but their zeal to nail Bush made them a little too sloppy.

 

[volinbham]

If anybody had an incentive to further investigate this it's CBS!

Don't you think if they could trace the documents back to W or anyone on his side they would have nailed him to the wall with it? They could have salvaged some credibility (or at least sympathy). In short, if W was behind it and got got - he would lose the election for sure.

Maybe I don't have the conspiracy mind but for W to behind memogate would be a huge risk with limited pay-out. The media did back-off the story but I don't think it was that big of a story at the time. As I said before, I think most people were already skeptical about his Guard service. The story had been in and out of the press for quite a while. The CBS story (both before and after memogate was revealed) made it a much bigger deal and as you suggest essentially killed it.

 

[CSpindizzy]

Considering they jumped on some 'woman's' leak from a Kinko's in TX? THAT is traceable. The trail dried up and bases were covered. If anyone has followed Rove's career, he's done this twice before. Or let's say this MO has followed Rove campaigns around. So yes it would have been in CBS' interest to investigate but when the trail goes dry, they have no way of doing anything. It's hard to investigate a lead that dried up due to a well planned method.

 

[CSpindizzy]

And limited payout? Are you kidding me? He hit the motherlode. He killed the story and made the media look like fools. After that any story the media digs up is questioned for reliability and it even makes most reporters think twice before even looking in the first place. By doing this, Bush accomplishes EVERYTHING he could ever want in the campaign.