Was it murder?

[Coach Grizz]

I have a question for you political guru's. I just watched a short segment on Dr. Kavorkian as we know he passed away this week and the controversy he caused while he was living. So my question is, did he commit murder? It's a very touchy subject but I say it's not murder. The man wanted to die, he and his family was ok and prepared for it. If the man wanted to die and he did it himself who are they gonna charge for murder? So why charge someone for assisting a suicide when they were asked to do it?

What do y'all think? I'll hang up and listen

 

[IBlvNTmWrk]

That's a good question Grizz. The difficulty, imo, is that there is not a defined term recognized by law for this type of death. When someone dies it is usually attributed to 1 of 4 things: old age/health, an accident of some type, suicide, or murder. Murder, the taking of someone else's life, seems to best fit this scenario... though I recognize there are certainly unique circumstances that must be considered.

 

[VolDad]

Not Murder.

 

[Spartacavolus]

After watching my father battle through multiple strokes and repeated comas last year, it's a no brainer. He initially would have moments of normal conversation here and there and it would always lead to him talking about "not putting me back in and having all those tests. I'm tired son."

 

[Coach Grizz]

Not Murder.

Wow we agree on something lol.
Posted via VolNation Mobile

 

[Coach Grizz]

After watching my father battle through multiple strokes and repeated comas last year, it's a no brainer. He initially would have moments of normal conversation here and there and it would always lead to him talking about "not putting me back in and having all those tests. I'm tired son."

I'm sorry to hear that my friend. I hope I never have to hear my old man say that
Posted via VolNation Mobile

 

[IPorange]

Surely if there is one thing we all have an unalienable right to, it's our ability to exist (or exist on this mortal plane, if you are spiritual. Either way, the concept is the same). The moralities surrounding that decision can be debated, but the right still remains.

 

[Spartacavolus]

I'm sorry to hear that my friend. I hope I never have to hear my old man say that
Posted via VolNation Mobile

Appreciate it. I don't wish that on anyone, and feel for those going through it daily. Time heels my man and he's not hurting or tired anymore. Man was born during the great depression and started working in tobacco fields when he was 9 (which is when he started smoking). He lived until 76. Held a job the entire time. I'd be tired too. If he would have been allowed to make his own choice, he wouldn't have wanted to go through the last 6 months of bs he had to go through.

 

[LawVol13]

Surely if there is one thing we all have an unalienable right to, it's our ability to exist (or exist on this mortal plane, if you are spiritual. Either way, the concept is the same). The moralities surrounding that decision can be debated, but the right still remains.

Absolutely spot on.

 

[volinbham]

Surely if there is one thing we all have an unalienable right to, it's our ability to exist (or exist on this mortal plane, if you are spiritual. Either way, the concept is the same). The moralities surrounding that decision can be debated, but the right still remains.

Yep. Not sure we have the same right to end someone else's life. It's a tough call.

 

[DinkinFlicka]

Yep. Not sure we have the same right to end someone else's life. It's a tough call.

Since we're all autonomous beings, should we not reserve the right to have our plugs pulled? Beats suicide.

 

[IPorange]

Yep. Not sure we have the same right to end someone else's life. It's a tough call.

Choosing to act as another person's instrument of their will, doing something within their right, seems pretty simple to me. We do that all the time.

 

[volinbham]

Choosing to act as another person's instrument of their will, doing something within their right, seems pretty simple to me. We do that all the time.

So how would you monitor this. How would you establish will? Obviously the consequences of someone doing this are permanent and non-reversible.

I asked in another thread about suicide centers. Should they be legal?

 

[IPorange]

So how would you monitor this. How would you establish will? Obviously the consequences of someone doing this are permanent and non-reversible.

I asked in another thread about suicide centers. Should they be legal?

"Monitor" this? Get a notary to witness the communication?

I am not sure I know what you mean when you say "suicide centers." I imagine the suicide booths in Futurama.

I would think the appropriate realm for this would be the same as medicine: hospitals, hospices, or house calls.

 

[volinbham]

The monitor idea is rooted in the notion that the decision is permanent. People are suicidal at points in their lives only to find meaning or reason to live at some later point. There are issues with mental stability both chronic and acute that could result in non-rational decisions.

I realize we are talking about terminally ill patients but if we have a right to have someone kill us because we cannot ourselves (for whatever reason) then we have to consider issues like depression, angst, mental instability, etc.

 

[IPorange]

The monitor idea is rooted in the notion that the decision is permanent. People are suicidal at points in their lives only to find meaning or reason to live at some later point. There are issues with mental stability both chronic and acute that could result in non-rational decisions.

I realize we are talking about terminally ill patients but if we have a right to have someone kill us because we cannot ourselves (for whatever reason) then we have to consider issues like depression, angst, mental instability, etc.

I'm probably still on the wilder side of things in all cases of suicide, but we are specifically talking about the suffering terminally ill. Not people who have mental issues.

 

[volinbham]

I'm probably still on the wilder side of things in all cases of suicide, but we are specifically talking about the suffering terminally ill. Not people who have mental issues.

So it is not a universal right - it is "in some very narrowly defined situations".

To me the problem is that while someone has the right to kill themselves, we rarely have the right to kill someone else (self defense, capital punishment, war).

Assisted suicide is killing someone else and at this point I don't buy that there is some universal or unalienable right to having someone kill you because there is no such right for one person to kill another.

I am open to the idea in some very highly and tightly constrained situations but those are exceptions rather than universal right.

Just my opinion.

 

[IPorange]

So it is not a universal right - it is "in some very narrowly defined situations".

To me the problem is that while someone has the right to kill themselves, we rarely have the right to kill someone else (self defense, capital punishment, war).

Assisted suicide is killing someone else and at this point I don't buy that there is some universal or unalienable right to having someone kill you because there is no such right for one person to kill another.

I am open to the idea in some very highly and tightly constrained situations but those are exceptions rather than universal right.

Just my opinion.

It is definitely a right. But we deny rights to children and the mentally infirm all the time, as they are not able to make clear judgements.

 

[volinbham]

It is definitely a right. But we deny rights to children and the mentally infirm all the time, as they are not able to make clear judgements.

But its not a right to kill someone - there are two parties here. Just because one has a right to off himself it doesn't automatically confer a right to someone else (to take a life).

 

[utvolpj]

when my mom had a brain tumor removed I was given the responsibility of making the call (based on her wishes) if something went wrong. What would make my choice more correct legally and morally than if she made it herself and had someone assist? I wouldn't be "pulling the plug" myself so I would need assistance too.

 

[volinbham]

I think "pulling the plug" is materially different than assisted suicide. In the first case, it is a matter of not taking action to keep someone alive (e.g. remove feeding tube).

In the latter, an action is being taken (injection of poison) to end the life. It is not letting nature take its course.

In the larger view, I'm not opposed to assisted suicide (accelerating death) in some very tightly prescribed situations. I'm just not convinced we have some universal right to have someone kill us.

Consider the following scenarios:

1) I had a bad day and want to end it - I ask a friend to shoot me.
2) I made some bad financial decisions and am in deep trouble - I trot down to the hospital and ask them to inject me.
3) My girl ended it with me and is cheating with a friend - please push me out the window.
4) I become paralyzed and can't imagine life without walking - kill me now.
etc. etc. etc.

All these scenarios involve adults who are legally competent. Do they all involve the simple exercise of rights of the eventually dead?

If no, then we are talking about some very limited and special circumstances where we would allow someone to take action to kill someone. If it's that limited and prescribed it's hard to view it a universal right.

 

[Coach Grizz]

Appreciate it. I don't wish that on anyone, and feel for those going through it daily. Time heels my man and he's not hurting or tired anymore. Man was born during the great depression and started working in tobacco fields when he was 9 (which is when he started smoking). He lived until 76. Held a job the entire time. I'd be tired too. If he would have been allowed to make his own choice, he wouldn't have wanted to go through the last 6 months of bs he had to go through.

My great grandfather, grandfather and father spent their lives in the tobacco patch. The doctor told my doodle that he needed to stop smokin' and doodle told him "I been smokin' since I was 11 years old, ain't so since in quitin now" another good friend of me said I survived two tours in 'nam, gotta die of something
Posted via VolNation Mobile

 

[IPorange]

As I said, if you are acting as an instrument of someone else's will in a matter they have every right to enact on, I don't think "you" are taking their life.

 

[IBlvNTmWrk]

So it is not a universal right - it is "in some very narrowly defined situations".

To me the problem is that while someone has the right to kill themselves, we rarely have the right to kill someone else (self defense, capital punishment, war).

Assisted suicide is killing someone else and at this point I don't buy that there is some universal or unalienable right to having someone kill you because there is no such right for one person to kill another.

I am open to the idea in some very highly and tightly constrained situations but those are exceptions rather than universal right.

Just my opinion.

I think "pulling the plug" is materially different than assisted suicide. In the first case, it is a matter of not taking action to keep someone alive (e.g. remove feeding tube).

In the latter, an action is being taken (injection of poison) to end the life. It is not letting nature take its course.

In the larger view, I'm not opposed to assisted suicide (accelerating death) in some very tightly prescribed situations. I'm just not convinced we have some universal right to have someone kill us.

Consider the following scenarios:

1) I had a bad day and want to end it - I ask a friend to shoot me.
2) I made some bad financial decisions and am in deep trouble - I trot down to the hospital and ask them to inject me.
3) My girl ended it with me and is cheating with a friend - please push me out the window.
4) I become paralyzed and can't imagine life without walking - kill me now.
etc. etc. etc.

All these scenarios involve adults who are legally competent. Do they all involve the simple exercise of rights of the eventually dead?

If no, then we are talking about some very limited and special circumstances where we would allow someone to take action to kill someone. If it's that limited and prescribed it's hard to view it a universal right.

Pretty much sums up my views. Well said. For every example we could find of someone who was terminally ill and wanted to end their life, we could find just as many that were not terminal but still wanted to end their life for one reason or another... significant (but temporary) pain, deep depression, loss of limb(s), burn victim, etc. that eventually felt good/better about living.

Where do you draw the line?

 

[utvolpj]

I think "pulling the plug" is materially different than assisted suicide. In the first case, it is a matter of not taking action to keep someone alive (e.g. remove feeding tube).

In the latter, an action is being taken (injection of poison) to end the life. It is not letting nature take its course.

In the larger view, I'm not opposed to assisted suicide (accelerating death) in some very tightly prescribed situations. I'm just not convinced we have some universal right to have someone kill us.

Consider the following scenarios:

1) I had a bad day and want to end it - I ask a friend to shoot me.
2) I made some bad financial decisions and am in deep trouble - I trot down to the hospital and ask them to inject me.
3) My girl ended it with me and is cheating with a friend - please push me out the window.
4) I become paralyzed and can't imagine life without walking - kill me now.
etc. etc. etc.

All these scenarios involve adults who are legally competent. Do they all involve the simple exercise of rights of the eventually dead?

If no, then we are talking about some very limited and special circumstances where we would allow someone to take action to kill someone. If it's that limited and prescribed it's hard to view it a universal right.

yet in your scenarios the people are perfectly capable of doing the deed themselves. I would see assisted suicide as something that requires the individual to be unable to complete the act without assistance (and not just lacking the will)