What is the point of government?

#1
LouderVol

LouderVol

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#1
I figure I will get a good variety of answers to this question I have been pondering for a while.

I was wanting to ask this generically, but I think typically people are going to focus on our government, which is fine I guess. So I tried to keep these questions generic enough where they don't have to be specific to America. And this is about what a government SHOULD be, without any consideration of history (We've always done it), or how our laws are currently written/phrased.

I am thinking more in broad terms rather than getting into specifics. And I would think its not one or the other, but somewhere in between. And some of these may not even be as binary as I am setting up.

1. Is it the government's job to represent the will of the people, or make the best choice available?
This is what I am struggling with the most when it comes to government. should the will behind the decision matter more, or should the outcome matter more when making a decision? What happens when the will of the people is clearly a bad choice?

2. Is the governments job to be predictive and take measures to stop things that haven't happened, or should government just be reactionary?

3. should a government care about particular outcomes, and see the happenstances of its people as matter of "failing/succeeding"? How does the government failing/succeeding impact the government going forward? Just because things are succeeding now, does that mean the government gets more leeway the next time? Or if they fail, do you keep growing the government in hope that you find a solution the next time, or does the first failure mean you wipe it out and never try again?

4. Should the government follow the letter of the law, or the spirit of it? which should be most important? Should changing definitions or times reset the "meaning" of a law? Same thing with holding the citizens to the standard of the law, is it the spirit or letter of the law that should matter more?

5. Does the type of government (the original form of republic where the state was a power holder in the federal government, our current republic where local majorities matter but not the state itself, vs a true democracy) provide any weight/justification behind the choices of the government? Does the means of making the decision lend any credibility to the decisions being made? Would our government making the same exact decisions be any more "justified" in making those decisions if your preferred version of the government existed?
 
#2
#2
1. No, it's not the job of the the government to represent the will of the people.
2. That is way to broad to answer specifically. Yes the government should forecast and plan accordingly. No the government shouldn't be in the pre-crime business.
3. No, just on principle.
4. Laws should be enforced by the letter. When times change laws should be changed. Govt employees, especially regulatory and enforcement are too stupid to be trusted with interpretation.
5. WUT?

Our government, any governments #1 job is to protect individual liberty and rights. #2 job is to protect it's citizens from foreign aggression and #3 is to promote free and unobstructed trade within it's borders and fair trade outside of them. Those are really the only 3 jobs government has at the federal/national level.
 
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#3
#3
Maybe you should elaborate which level of government you are talking about, local, state or federal. There is a place for each.
 
#4
#4
VolStrom said:
Maybe you should elaborate which level of government you are talking about, local, state or federal. There is a place for each.
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I don't see it changing any of the answers to these questions. This was something I was doing on purpose. especially as your local government is going to be different than someone elses. I live in a different state than most people on this board.

If you feel it gives a better answer you can specify as needed.
 
#5
#5
hog88 said:
1. No, it's not the job of the the government to represent the will of the people.
2. That is way to broad to answer specifically. Yes the government should forecast and plan accordingly. No the government shouldn't be in the pre-crime business.
3. No, just on principle.
4. Laws should be enforced by the letter. When times change laws should be changed. Govt employees, especially regulatory and enforcement are too stupid to be trusted with interpretation.
5. WUT?

Our government, any governments #1 job is to protect individual liberty and rights. #2 job is to protect it's citizens from foreign aggression and #3 is to promote free and unobstructed trade within it's borders and fair trade outside of them. Those are really the only 3 jobs government has at the federal/national level.
Click to expand...
thanks for the answers.

Number 5 is asking does the current form of the government change how you view what we are getting from the government. You are a constitutionalist, and even bit of an originalist wanting to get rid of the 17th. would you be any more accepting of our current government if we didn't elect our senators? --how much does the manner our government operates matter to you personally, or is it purely results driven?
 
#6
#6
LouderVol said:
thanks for the answers.

Number 5 is asking does the current form of the government change how you view what we are getting from the government. You are a constitutionalist, and even bit of an originalist wanting to get rid of the 17th. would you be any more accepting of our current government if we didn't elect our senators? --how much does the manner our government operates matter to you personally, or is it purely results driven?
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Yes I think our federal government would operate better at the legislative level if we repealed the 17th amendment. The bureaucracy at the federal level is what we need to focus on, the vast majority of that has to be sliced, diced and tossed in the waste basket.
 
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#9
#9
I don't think there's a blanket answer. Not all governments are created equal.
 
#11
#11
hog88 said:
Yes I think our federal government would operate better at the legislative level if we repealed the 17th amendment. The bureaucracy at the federal level is what we need to focus on, the vast majority of that has to be sliced, diced and tossed in the waste basket.
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Need to repeal both the 16th and 17th. The pair of them is what turned the US from a limited constitutional republic into a centrally managed behemoth
 
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#12
#12
OrangeTsar said:
Need to repeal both the 16th and 17th. The pair of them is what turned the US from a limited constitutional republic into a centrally managed behemoth
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Agreed. We can thank the Republican party for both of those abominations.
 
#13
#13
OrangeTsar said:
Need to repeal both the 16th and 17th. The pair of them is what turned the US from a limited constitutional republic into a centrally managed behemoth
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but even if those things were fixed, how would my questions apply? what you and hog are focusing on is why I am asking my 5th question. I am trying to figure out if it really matters if we have the 16/17 amendments.

I believe there are more fundamental questions that need to be answered beyond the specifics of a few amendments.
 
#15
#15
hog88 said:
Yes I think our federal government would operate better at the legislative level if we repealed the 17th amendment. The bureaucracy at the federal level is what we need to focus on, the vast majority of that has to be sliced, diced and tossed in the waste basket.
Click to expand...
would it matter if they were more efficient if they are missing on the base values of the nation and the base purpose of a government?

to your answer of the first question, what then would you say a government should do? If its not represent the will of the people? and if its not to represent the will of the people do you think a representative republic is the appropriate answer?
 
#16
#16
LouderVol said:
but even if those things were fixed, how would my questions apply? what you and hog are focusing on is why I am asking my 5th question. I am trying to figure out if it really matters if we have the 16/17 amendments.

I believe there are more fundamental questions that need to be answered beyond the specifics of a few amendments.
Click to expand...

LouderVol said:
thanks for the answers.

Number 5 is asking does the current form of the government change how you view what we are getting from the government. You are a constitutionalist, and even bit of an originalist wanting to get rid of the 17th. would you be any more accepting of our current government if we didn't elect our senators? --how much does the manner our government operates matter to you personally, or is it purely results driven?
Click to expand...

We are currently getting the shaft from the government and the current form is untenable. Monolithic organizations always trample those that get in their way and then they fall which leads to pain, suffering and chaos. It doesn't matter if we accept the current form of our federal government or not, one day it will fall and it will fall directly on the citizens it's taxing to hold itself up.
 
#18
#18
LouderVol said:
would it matter if they were more efficient if they are missing on the base values of the nation and the base purpose of a government?

to your answer of the first question, what then would you say a government should do? If its not represent the will of the people? and if its not to represent the will of the people do you think a representative republic is the appropriate answer?
Click to expand...

I gave you my answers in my first post.
 
#19
#19
hog88 said:
No but they all (national/federal) should have the same basic goals.
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But they obviously don't. Are we talking about levels of government as they exist here in our country, or government as it exists across the world? The goal of a Communist government really isn't the same as a Republic or a Democracy. What should be and what is are two different things.
 
#20
#20
Weezer said:
But they obviously don't. Are we talking about levels of government as they exist here in our country, or government as it exists across the world? The goal of a Communist government really isn't the same as a Republic or a Democracy. What should be and what is are two different things.
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The true goal of government is to grow itself, consolidate power, control its subjects and enrich the people in power. It doesn't matter what form or level of government you are talking about.
 
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#24
#24
hog88 said:
The true goal of government is to grow itself, consolidate power, control its subjects and enrich the people in power. It doesn't matter what form or level of government you are talking about.
Click to expand...
I'm not that cynical yet, so I guess I should just retire from this conversation.
 
#25
#25
hog88 said:
We are currently getting the shaft from the government and the current form is untenable. Monolithic organizations always trample those that get in their way and then they fall which leads to pain, suffering and chaos. It doesn't matter if we accept the current form of our federal government or not, one day it will fall and it will fall directly on the citizens it's taxing to hold itself up.
Click to expand...
I am going to go back to my original question, and your responses.

What is the point of a government? Its not supposed to be too big, but its supposed to be able to predict the needs/future changes necessary. That requires scale. Its not supposed to be big but its also not supposed to follow the will of the people. If you aren't following the will of the people you are relying on a bureaucracy to make those decisions. Applying the letter of the law requires a consistently changing/growing set of laws to apply correctly, which increases the size.

either I need to ask better questions, or you need to redefine what it is you think a government should be. because you want it to be big, but you also want it to be small.
 
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