While we are watching Israel and Hezbollah duke it out...

[OrangeEmpire]

CNN

BAGHDAD, Iraq (CNN) -- More than 14,000 civilians have been killed in Iraq in the first half of this year, an ominous figure reflecting the fact that "killings, kidnappings and torture remain widespread" in the war-torn country, a United Nations report says.

 

[therealUT]

Some interesting 2004-2005 totals for U.S. crime (mind you this is only in cities with a population equal to or greater than 100,000.)

Murders: 17,325
Forcible Rape: 62,879
Aggravated Assault (aka assault with the intent to kill): 499,515

That agg. assault number is astonishing.

 

[OWB]

Reported civilian deaths resulting from the US-led military intervention in Iraq is around 40,000 to 43,000 deaths.

 

[hohenfelsvol]

Misleading. The greater part of that number are terrorists or insurgents as they like to call them posing as civilians. Don't mislead yourself.

 

[therealUT]

Reported civilian deaths resulting from the US-led military intervention in Iraq is around 40,000 to 43,000 deaths.

I'll just leave this for you and tell you it is my opinion that it applies universally...

July 20, 2006, 6:32 a.m.

Terrorism as Social Contract
An Arab failure.

By Mario Loyola

Both Hamas and Hezbollah intentionally fire missiles from densely populated areas so that Israel will kill civilians when it retaliates, because that inflames the Arab world, and helps turn world opinion against Israel.

We feel deeply for the civilians on both sides whose lives have been and will be ruined by this war. But if Israel’s enemies choose to use civilians as human shields for attacks against it, they and not Israel are guilty of war crimes. It is Hezbollah and the Palestinian terror groups which should be held up for international condemnation when they force Israel to conduct military operations in civilian areas. Israel cannot be expected to make up for its enemies’ lack of concern for their own civilian casualties. The purpose of military strategy is to win.

Unforunately, most Americans do not understand this concept. Therefore, while Isreal wages wars that last 6 days, 13 days, and I am guessing this current war against Hezbollah will last another 3 or 4 weeks, our own US forces engage in wars that should be won in a matter of months, yet last for 4 and 11 years (OIF and Vietnam.)

The theory of total war actually reduces all casualties, from battlefield casualties to civilian casualties, because the duration of engagements are so shortened.

 

[OWB]

Misleading. The greater part of that number are terrorists or insurgents as they like to call them posing as civilians. Don't mislead yourself.

Here is just about every death listed.... Feel free to go through them all..

LINK

 

[therealUT]

Here is just about every death listed.... Feel free to go through them all..

LINK

That is not in any way deaths that US forces perpetrated. Basically, it is a listing of every non-combatant who has been killed since March 2003 (whether by US forces, US airpower, Al Qaeda in Iraq, etc.) It is a most ambigous list to say the least.

One could basically make the argument that Allied Intervention in continental Europe from 1941-1945 led to 10 million civilian casualties. It is not a lie, but it is not the whole truth...shades of Michael Moore.

 

[therealUT]

I also am intrigued by the fact that whoever runs that website has spent plenty of time and energy documenting each case. Yet, they fail to cite (or link) these cases so that anyone trying to verify the research, may do so quickly and easily.

Makes it seem like they are definitely trying to obscure the greater truth of the conflict. What could that greater truth be? Maybe that the insurgents are responsible for more civilian casualties than are US troops???

 

[OWB]

Makes it seem like they are definitely trying to obscure the greater truth of the conflict. What could that greater truth be? Maybe that the insurgents are responsible for more civilian casualties than are US troops???

Maybe, but why are they called insurgents in the first place?

 

[therealUT]

Maybe, but why are they called insurgents in the first place?

Because the media likes to play patty cake with them and refuses to call them terrorists.

 

[OWB]

Because the media likes to play patty cake with them and refuses to call them terrorists.

It's just too disappointing to call them terrorists man. We're a fragile, sensitive country these days. How do you think the American public will take it when they realize our "War on terror" might have actually created more terrorists instead of the eliminate them.

 

[therealUT]

It's just too disappointing to call them terrorists man. We're a fragile, sensitive country these days. How do you think the American public will take it when they realize our "War on terror" might have actually created more terrorists instead of the eliminate them.

As long as those "new terrorists" are hanging out in the Middle East as opposed to North America, I think the American public would not mind...

 

[OWB]

As long as those "new terrorists" are hanging out in the Middle East as opposed to North America, I think the American public would not mind...

How do you feel about the terrorists that are only children who will one day be seeking revenge for whatever reason? Think they'll ever make it over to America?

 

[therealUT]

Is that any different than what was happening prior to March, 2003? Iran, Syria, and Palestine have been grooming children into terrorists for over 30 years. Iraq is still failing to groom a sufficient amount of terrorists, as most of the opposition we face in Iraq these days come from Iran, Syria, and Chechnya (of all places.)

 

[hohenfelsvol]

Here is just about every death listed.... Feel free to go through them all..

LINK

Same statement still applies. Don't mislead yourself. Just because you can read the names doesn't mean a good part of the list weren't combatants.

 

[OWB]

Same statement still applies. Don't mislead yourself. Just because you can read the names doesn't mean a good part of the list weren't combatants.

That same list also doesn't mean that there weren't more....

I understand that cilvilian casualties are part of war and I respect the military and weapons makers for going to a lot of trouble to perfect the weapons and cut down on those kind of casualties. I'll just say that plenty of people have died that probably didn't deserve to die and leave it at that.

 

[GAVol]

I'll just say that plenty of people have died that probably didn't deserve to die and leave it at that.

Unfortunately true, but that's war.

 

[volinbham]

How do you think the American public will take it when they realize our "War on terror" might have actually created more terrorists instead of the eliminate them.

If our efforts in the Middle East have any impact on encouraging more freedom and less economic despair then the long-term fodder for terrorism will be greatly diminished.

 

[LadyinOrange]

Unfortunately true, but that's war.

Finally, somebody with some sense.

 

[OWB]

If our efforts in the Middle East have any impact on encouraging more freedom and less economic despair then the long-term fodder for terrorism will be greatly diminished.

While I think that freedom will be good for them, education is the key.

 

[MyBloodRunnethOrange]

How do you think the American public will take it when they realize our "War on terror" might have actually created more terrorists instead of the eliminate them.

As long as those "new terrorists" are hanging out in the Middle East as opposed to North America, I think the American public would not mind...

Then what is the purpose of our being over there, and what is the mission?