Who to Play against Zone? Personnel Madness

#1

armchair

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#1
Let's forget about coaching for a moment and look at the players and the problem of who to play. The coaches certainly don't know--and it's hard to blame them as NOBODY, let's repeat that, NOBODY on this team has played well this year. That's saying something--or nothing. Maybe we give Graves a pass for her usual hard work, but of course hard work doesn't put the ball in the basket either.

We sux in many ways, starting with our offensive play against zone defenses. So who would we--the true experts--play against a zone defense like the one the Vols saw yesterday and have seen all year. Let's begin with the premise that what we've done all year hasn't not worked and as largely been pathetic.

Who do we play at PG, for starters? I did not see the start of the game yesterday but I assume Cooper started. She played more than any other guard--3/4 of the game. Why? She has played, and shot, poorly against zone defenses all year. Does HW not look at the team stats? This must be plain: Cooper is the WORST shooter on the team, has the worst shooting percentage of any of our regulars--and yet guess who has taken the second most shots on the team this year--nearly twice as many as Cooper and Reynolds? Guess who took 15 shots yesterday and made, count 'em, 3! Cooper. Granted, nobody on this team shoots well--Carter is 37 percent, Reynolds 36 percent, Cooper...34 percent. Still, bottom line: You don't want your worst shooter taking 15 shots! That's more of the LOW IQ basketball that is killing this team.

Reynolds should be the PG on this team. She has--by far--the best assist/turnover ratio on the team. She is the best rebounder among our guards. And, importantly, she has an asset--size--that can in theory be helpful in breaking down a zone. She can use her size to split defenders and get inside to shoot or pass. That's an important asset against a zone. She is also our toughest guard--and let's also mention the fact that she was our best player in two recent games. She's an OK defender and OK shooter--but on the whole I would absolutely make her my starting PG and stick with her.

Next? DeShields. She has to play and play more than 24 minutes. She's dour, there is a negative quality to her on-court personalty that I think is detrimental to the team; I can understand why HW and the coaches have benched her--but we are so talent poor that she has to play. So she is my shooting guard to go with Reynolds, and I stick with her.

Next? Now it gets a bit more difficult, or it might for me. It won't for HW. Graves. She will be in the lineup because she's a hard-working veteran who will bang. The problem with Graves is that she has spent too much of her career inside and simply does not offer enough movement and scoring away from the basket. She, like Cooper, is not effective against a zone, except for her rebounding. It doesn't matter--HW is going to play her. So there's three--Reynolds, DeShields and Graves.

Now what? Two more spots that could go to Russell, Nared, Carter, Dunbar or Middleton. One coaching decision that I liked yesterday was that WE played more zone defense. We can be effective playing zone ourselves, and when Dunbar was in the game we were playing zone. You could play Dunbar at the other forward position to give us some desperately needed scoring punch--and then play zone. You NEED to make threes against a zone defense--it is a MUST. We are a bad three-point shooting team--this is a big reason why our offense sux. This is why we must play Dunbar, IMO, and start playing a zone defense ourselves almost exclusively. So now I've got Reynolds, DeShields, Graves and Dunbar.

And for my 5th starter? I'm going unconventional, going against what HW has done all year--and that has been a big fail: I'm playing Nared as my 5th starter. She has been a disappointment offensively--who hasn't?--but she still has a lot of potential, and must play to realize it. She is 6'2" and long and athletic, can run the floor--and her length be a real asset defensively as well. We need those qualities. I like what she can potentially offer in combo with the other four.

What I do with Russell is use her to spell/backup Graves. Russell is paying too many minutes and simply does not have sufficient impact on the game. I also think Russell and Graves together have not been good for the offense. Neither one of them is a natural scorer. They play too close together, they do not work off one another very well, in terms of passing, and I think our offense is too stagnant with them together. We try to force too many passes to them. Without Russell we get--in theory-- more movement and more space. Dunbar can move around and find shots. But here's the weakness in my lineup: It's good to have a big body like Russell who can catch a pass inside, draw defenders--and then kick it out. We would miss that a bit--but we don't do it much right now, and not very well.

So, against a zone defense, my lineup is this:
PG--Reyolds.
Shooting guard: DeShields
Forward/wing: Nared
Forward/Wing: Dunbar
Center: Graves/Russell

Mind you, I think this lineup should try to play uptempo and run as much as possible--everybody in the group can run. But it also potentially offers more against a zone when we are playing half-court.

With this starting group I play a 1-3-1 zone-Reynolds at the point, DeShields on a wing, Dunbar in the middle and Nared on a wing. Graves/Russell inside. That could be effective against a team that is a fairly good outside shooting team. You could play 2-1-2 against a team that was stronger inside. I do not think playing only 1 of Graves/Russell should hurt our rebounding--not with Nared, DeShields and Dunbar and Reynolds. Those four plus either Graves/Russell should be plenty good enough on the boards--and, more important, might give us some more dynamism on offense, if there is any chemistry, which we haven't had all year.

I think trying to get the ball inside all the time to two bigs that aren't really scorers has hurt the offense--we stand around too much, we throw the ball away trying to force it inside. Get freakin' players moving, move the ball and shoot it. Warlick needs to disabuse herself of this notion that we must play man defense and that we must pound the ball inside. Hasn't worked.

I spell DeShields with Carter and spell Reynolds with either Middleton or Cooper, and spell Graves with Russell.

If we face a team that wants to play man against us, we might have to alter the lineup--but maybe not. We need a well-defined rotation before the damn season ends. Playing anybody and everybody in all sorts of combinations has been a disaster. Pick one, for chrissake and stick with it.
 
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#2
#2
Middleton has to be in the game- she has shown she is the best passer on the team. She can also hit the outside shot.

Dunbar has to take playing time from Carter or Reynolds. She's shown she's the only consistent zone buster on the team.

Those are my two must haves.
 
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#3
#3
Several of the players you list as starters have poor conditioning or just lag up the court. What would you do about that?
 
#4
#4
I go with the lineup that showed liked they wanted to play until Holly bench Te'a for turning it over when nobody got open on the inbounds and that is;

PG-Middleton
SG-Cooper
SF-Diamond
PF-Dunbar
C-Graves

My bench players would be;
Jackson (For Cooper/Middleton), Nared (For Diamond and Dunbar) Russell/Moore (For Graves)

The only way Jordan and Andraya plays if they are looking to score, I don't need them to be faciliators, let Middleton and Cooper do that
 
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#5
#5
PG-Middleton
SG-DeShields
SF-Nared
PF-Dunbar
C-Russell

Middleton is the only one who can make decent post passes. We need 3-point threats so they don't double-team Russell. This starting lineup gives us the best chance against a zone.
 
#6
#6
Armchair has the problems diagnosed. I might differ a bit with his suggested fixes… but they would be an improvement.

Holly seems to have a problem in evaluating the talent she has – determining the strengths and weaknesses of each player – and putting them in combinations and offensive schemes that get the most from their talent and hide their weaknesses. Dunbar is a great example. She can shoot like Mosqueda Lewis – but has the same defensive and conditioning issues. But I seem to recall KML was a big part of a UConn offense that won a few championships. I can’t believe that there wasn’t a single player on the court for LSU that she couldn’t guard man-to-man. And putting Deshields in a scheme where she has to slow down to a crawl and pass the ball into fairly mediocre posts is just plain silly. She should be shooting and slashing to the basket and – when she gets blocked or double teamed – kicking it out to Dunbar.

Holly might consider that starting to experiment now might make things worse… and they might. But she might want to look on it as an early jump towards next season in giving the team the complete makeover that it needs.
 
#7
#7
I don't think any lineup works with Holly coaching. I think a top coach would have us 10 to 15 points a game better just by getting us better shots and having the right people shooting the ball. Why Holly let's Cooper shoot 15 a game is beyond me. She has taken more shots than Graves or Russell who are shooting in the 50's.
 
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#8
#8
I would approve your message except Reynolds ....she would play no more than 10 minutes per game and that would be stretching it....if I were coach against anyone and any system zone or otherwise.

My lineup would consist of only one low post player and would be :Cooper,Dunbar,Diamond,Nared,and either Graves or Russell.Play 4 out and 1 in.
 
#10
#10
Let's forget about coaching for a moment and look at the players and the problem of who to play. The coaches certainly don't know--and it's hard to blame them as NOBODY, let's repeat that, NOBODY on this team has played well this year. That's saying something--or nothing. Maybe we give Graves a pass for her usual hard work, but of course hard work doesn't put the ball in the basket either.

We sux in many ways, starting with our offensive play against zone defenses. So who would we--the true experts--play against a zone defense like the one the Vols saw yesterday and have seen all year. Let's begin with the premise that what we've done all year hasn't not worked and as largely been pathetic.

Who do we play at PG, for starters? I did not see the start of the game yesterday but I assume Cooper started. She played more than any other guard--3/4 of the game. Why? She has played, and shot, poorly against zone defenses all year. Does HW not look at the team stats? This must be plain: Cooper is the WORST shooter on the team, has the worst shooting percentage of any of our regulars--and yet guess who has taken the second most shots on the team this year--nearly twice as many as Cooper and Reynolds? Guess who took 15 shots yesterday and made, count 'em, 3! Cooper. Granted, nobody on this team shoots well--Carter is 37 percent, Reynolds 36 percent, Cooper...34 percent. Still, bottom line: You don't want your worst shooter taking 15 shots! That's more of the LOW IQ basketball that is killing this team.

Reynolds should be the PG on this team. She has--by far--the best assist/turnover ratio on the team. She is the best rebounder among our guards. And, importantly, she has an asset--size--that can in theory be helpful in breaking down a zone. She can use her size to split defenders and get inside to shoot or pass. That's an important asset against a zone. She is also our toughest guard--and let's also mention the fact that she was our best player in two recent games. She's an OK defender and OK shooter--but on the whole I would absolutely make her my starting PG and stick with her.

Next? DeShields. She has to play and play more than 24 minutes. She's dour, there is a negative quality to her on-court personalty that I think is detrimental to the team; I can understand why HW and the coaches have benched her--but we are so talent poor that she has to play. So she is my shooting guard to go with Reynolds, and I stick with her.

Next? Now it gets a bit more difficult, or it might for me. It won't for HW. Graves. She will be in the lineup because she's a hard-working veteran who will bang. The problem with Graves is that she has spent too much of her career inside and simply does not offer enough movement and scoring away from the basket. She, like Cooper, is not effective against a zone, except for her rebounding. It doesn't matter--HW is going to play her. So there's three--Reynolds, DeShields and Graves.

Now what? Two more spots that could go to Russell, Nared, Carter, Dunbar or Middleton. One coaching decision that I liked yesterday was that WE played more zone defense. We can be effective playing zone ourselves, and when Dunbar was in the game we were playing zone. You could play Dunbar at the other forward position to give us some desperately needed scoring punch--and then play zone. You NEED to make threes against a zone defense--it is a MUST. We are a bad three-point shooting team--this is a big reason why our offense sux. This is why we must play Dunbar, IMO, and start playing a zone defense ourselves almost exclusively. So now I've got Reynolds, DeShields, Graves and Dunbar.

And for my 5th starter? I'm going unconventional, going against what HW has done all year--and that has been a big fail: I'm playing Nared as my 5th starter. She has been a disappointment offensively--who hasn't?--but she still has a lot of potential, and must play to realize it. She is 6'2" and long and athletic, can run the floor--and her length be a real asset defensively as well. We need those qualities. I like what she can potentially offer in combo with the other four.

What I do with Russell is use her to spell/backup Graves. Russell is paying too many minutes and simply does not have sufficient impact on the game. I also think Russell and Graves together have not been good for the offense. Neither one of them is a natural scorer. They play too close together, they do not work off one another very well, in terms of passing, and I think our offense is too stagnant with them together. We try to force too many passes to them. Without Russell we get--in theory-- more movement and more space. Dunbar can move around and find shots. But here's the weakness in my lineup: It's good to have a big body like Russell who can catch a pass inside, draw defenders--and then kick it out. We would miss that a bit--but we don't do it much right now, and not very well.

So, against a zone defense, my lineup is this:
PG--Reyolds.
Shooting guard: DeShields
Forward/wing: Nared
Forward/Wing: Dunbar
Center: Graves/Russell

Mind you, I think this lineup should try to play uptempo and run as much as possible--everybody in the group can run. But it also potentially offers more against a zone when we are playing half-court.

With this starting group I play a 1-3-1 zone-Reynolds at the point, DeShields on a wing, Dunbar in the middle and Nared on a wing. Graves/Russell inside. That could be effective against a team that is a fairly good outside shooting team. You could play 2-1-2 against a team that was stronger inside. I do not think playing only 1 of Graves/Russell should hurt our rebounding--not with Nared, DeShields and Dunbar and Reynolds. Those four plus either Graves/Russell should be plenty good enough on the boards--and, more important, might give us some more dynamism on offense, if there is any chemistry, which we haven't had all year.

I think trying to get the ball inside all the time to two bigs that aren't really scorers has hurt the offense--we stand around too much, we throw the ball away trying to force it inside. Get freakin' players moving, move the ball and shoot it. Warlick needs to disabuse herself of this notion that we must play man defense and that we must pound the ball inside. Hasn't worked.

I spell DeShields with Carter and spell Reynolds with either Middleton or Cooper, and spell Graves with Russell.

If we face a team that wants to play man against us, we might have to alter the lineup--but maybe not. We need a well-defined rotation before the damn season ends. Playing anybody and everybody in all sorts of combinations has been a disaster. Pick one, for chrissake and stick with it.
Thank you for your reasonable and I think accurate analysis of our team's problems playing against a zone defense. I would also like to add that I've been reading your posts for a couple of years now and consider your opinion among the most realistic on the board. You took a lot of abuse last year by some posters for injecting a note of common sense when others we're ready to declare a new recruit the "savior" or that losing 3 seniors wouldn't be hard to replace.
Just wanted to let you know that it didn't go unnoticed.
(Though your next post that our poor offense started when PS was still coaching, which will be #1,000 on that topic, might be a little over the top! )
 
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#11
#11
Good break down guys....

I would keep Carter off the court as much as possible....I have never seen a player contribute so little for so many minutes....She's useless as an offensive player.
 
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#12
#12
Armchair, just a little feedback here…..

Against a zone defense you only addressed what players you would play against it. You didn’t address what type of offense you would specifically run against a zone. While I agree with you that this team should run/go up-tempo, again you didn’t address what to do when the ball is slowed down in a half-court game against a zone defense.

What sort of ball movement, screens, plays, etc. would you run against a zone defense? Typically against zone defenses you put players in spots where there are holes and you beat zone defenses with quick perimeter ball movement and penetration from it. When you pass the ball and it goes to one side of the court, the perimeter players on the other side should take one step in closer to the basket. Those holes against zones are typically the FT line, the wings to the paint line and the baseline.

Reason for this is when the ball swung quickly back around to their side, that player with one step-in closer to the basket has a closer outside shot or can penetrate that hole created on the quick ball movement and either shoot or dish inside or kick it across to the other wing for a wide open three. No team or its players can move faster that the ball when passed quickly.

The other thing that could be done against a zone is ball screens on both the low block and the elbow to seal that forward low or the guard high, allowing the wing player to penetrate (high guard sealed with a picked) or shoot a wide open three from the corner with the low forward sealed by a picked. Or you run screens like a double-screen with Nared or DD running baseline so that when they pop out of the baseline the zone forward is double-screened for a wide-open corner three or a 15 foot jumper. The guard at the top has to play the PG at that spot because if she leaves the PG to jump that screen, all the PG has to do is drive wide open for a shot. UNC ran the double screen corner play like this for DD occasionally when she was there.

Against a 2-1-2 zone, you could also run a 1-3-1 offense with the lineup you proposed in the 1-3-1 defense. All Russell does is go block to block on as the baseline player either posting up the forward or setting a screen on the forward for the corner/wing jumper on ball rotation. Dunbar in the middle has the option to shoot a free throw, drive and kick to either wing (DD or Nared) or a pass to Russell/Graves when the Fwd and/or Ctr collapse on her penetration. Quick ball movement kills a zone every time. Teams do this with success against Syracuse’s men’s vaunted match-up zone and often get lob dunks or wide open three’s.

In the 1-3-1 defense you proposed, you typically put your Center/Big in the middle/FT line and not on the baseline. That baseline player (the “Warrior”) needs to be athletic and quick enough to get from side-to-side on the baseline to defend against that corner/wing shot or penetration. Put Russell in the middle and all she does is slide on an arc across the paint on ball movement. Bear with my try at a visual: imagine taking the charge arc that is under the basket and moving up it so that the arc of it touches the foul line and then extending its end points to each line on each side of the paint. That’s Russell’s area of coverage in a 1-3-1 defense.

In a 1-3-1 defense everyone has to know where they are shifting, dropping and moving up to on ball movement. If you wing goes too far out, there is a gap. If the ball goes to the corner your baseline defender has to go to the corner with the wing stepping out towards the corner and the opposite wing has to go to the paint and put one foot into the dotted circle and one in the paint, the guard at the top has to drop to the FT line and Russell has to slide to the area of the low block. Everyone is shifting to an area in the 1-3-1 and you have to practice it over and over on ball rotations to get everyone in the right spots until its synchronized correctly.

I would spell Carter with the PG to give you hustle and manage the game while the starter rests. You replace DD with Carter and you lose a scoring threat for sure. If teams go man on this line-up, you go uptempo and beat them up and down the floor. If they are able to slow you down in man, you and want to get the ball to Russell/Graves, you clear out her post side and go two-man game with just her and ball handler on one side (kinda NBA-ish). Everybody else is opposite three point line or corner waiting to see if defense collapses. Clearing out forces teams to decide to double down or not. And if they do, run the un-guarded to the FT line for an open shot. You got enough time on the shot clock to try it and if the post player can’t take defender one-on-one in post, kick it back out and run another play or reset. Use all of the shot clock.

I think you just made a case for this teams turnover problem when you said ”I think trying to get the ball inside all the time to two bigs that aren't really scorers has hurt the offense--we stand around too much, we throw the ball away trying to force it inside.” So that explains all of the t.o.’s and why it’s counter-productive for HW to sit DD or anybody else because her offense wants to force feed the post and have everybody standing around outside of the arc with not flow...
 
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#13
#13
My zone five would be Cooper, Middleton, DeShields, Dunbar, and Russell.

Middleton over Carter because she's a better passer and shooter.

Cooper over Reynolds because I want someone more willing to (and therefore more of a threat) to take shots and drive. That will open things up slightly for others. Plus she's a better ball handler if the opponent tries to press.

DeShields is our most talented player and I'll live with her mistakes for better offensive production. And she can rebound.

Dunbar over Nared because she's our best outside shooter and needs to play to open up things for others.

Russell over Graves and Moore because I think she's a better low post player and a slightly better defensive rebounder.
 
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#14
#14
The tragedy of last nights game was that the LVs squandered a potentially season changing moment. Diamond stepped up and took over the game. She had a terrible start with the now standard litany of unforced turnovers and got pulled quickly; She played better in the second quarter upon her re-entry and was the lone bright spot for the LVs in the 3rd and 4th quarters. During the second half, in particular, Diamond asserted herself and started making plays. Her only failing (and it was a much the team as hers) was that she should have demanded the ball more in the last two minutes; instead, she faded to the periphery down the critical stretch.

One thing for sure, Diamond was not dour in that brilliant stretch. Per Middleton, she made an unforced turnover that helped to spark the LSU comeback but on the whole played well and seemed to be a steadying influence on the team.
 
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#15
#15
Armchair, did you not see Reynolds' performance in the game yesterday? She earned every second of her time on the bench. Neither Reynolds nor Carter would get any kind of playing time if I were coach.

The team made its big push in the third quarter yesterday with both Reynolds and Carter on the bench. Put either Cooper or Middleton at point guard, swap Dunbar for Graves, leave Nared in the lineup, and put in Russell.
 
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#16
#16
Armchair, did you not see Reynolds' performance in the game yesterday? She earned every second of her time on the bench. Neither Reynolds nor Carter would get any kind of playing time if I were coach.

The team made its big push in the third quarter yesterday with both Reynolds and Carter on the bench. Put either Cooper or Middleton at point guard, swap Dunbar for Graves, leave Nared in the lineup, and put in Russell.

Carter and Reynolds had bad games for sure. Though there are some many plays one could point to that cost the LVs a victory, Carters inexplicable foul in the last 3 second has to be on the list of culprit plays. I am not sure LSU could have gotten a score otherwise.
 

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