Why can't we as a country adopt natural gas to run our vehicles??

#1

g8terh8ter_eric

No Disassemble!
Joined
Jan 13, 2005
Messages
26,985
Likes
686
#1
Seems like with all the unrest in the Middle East, we would get out of that mess and turn to our own plentiful supply of gas.

ngfclose.gif


ngfhl.gif


Doesn't make much sense why we don't, since we have had vehicles on the road that have been converted to natural gas for years.

Anyone care to explain to me why we don't at least look at this option, or maybe a blend of natural gas and regular gas??
 
#2
#2
I wondered the same thing this morning when I heard the price of oil vs natural gas?
 
#3
#3
Well, in order for that to happen the oil companies would have to allow it. They won't.
 
  • Like
Reactions: 1 person
#4
#4
Wasn't it just a decade ago when the price of natural gas was more volatile than oil?
 
#5
#5
This makes too much sense. They'll never allow it.

We'll probably go with something that makes no sense that costs more to produce than can currently be profitable in anticipation of fuel prices going up until it becomes viable. Oh wait...cough, cough. :)
 
#6
#6
the cost of the infrastructure would be ridiculous. For those with NG already running to their house a personal filling system could probably be set up but even that would require massive upgrades
 
#7
#7
1) A natural gas vehicle is $5-10 thousand dollars more to manufacture
2) There is a catch 22, people don't want the vehicles if there aren't many places to fill them, stations don't want to install natural gas unless there is demand.

The government is currently offering a 4K credit for the cost of the vehicle, but probably can't afford to fund a fix for both of these problems all-at-once. It is a far different deal to fork out 4k to an occassional oddball wanting natural gas versus a mainstream initiative.

To me the following appear to be true and I have nothing substantial to back it up:

- The answer as far as we can see appears to be hydrogen fuel cells which can be charged with natural gas. This would seem to indicate that natural gas is a long-term solution in one form or another.

- Since the "oil industry" is more leveraged in natural gas than eletric power, I would think they would generally be behind natural gas. They know oil will eventually be replaced and if they cause too much foot-dragging they will be bypassed.

- Natural gas is also potentially applicable to consumer electronics. Battery technology hasn't changed to a radical degree since Ben Franklin coined the term in the 18th century. Image a phone that will run for months without needing to be charged. The demand is there.

- The fact that natural gas can be stored and transported potentially aids or solves the horrible power-grid synch problem that causes us to waste a lot of energy

If it's good enough for John Ward, it is good enough for me.
 
#9
#9
It wouldn't be that simple.

The way to get off mideast oil is to drill our own, we have enough to last over 200 years if we would just harvest it.

That isn't going to happen as long as democrats are in, I think the Saudis own them, lock stock and barrel. (no pun)

We probably have more in the Rockies alone than all Saudi reserves, unfortunately it happens to be on federally owned land.

Yesterday the Obama administration announced a delaying tactic which will put off the possibility of new offshore oil drilling on the Atlantic coast for at least five years: The announcement by the Interior Department sets into motion what will be at least a five year environmental survey to determine whether and where oil production might occur.

We might make progress toward using nat gas in automobiles and it sure as heck would make a lot more sense than the volt but then it couldn't be used in diesel engines and that's what moves the freight via trucks, locomotives pulling trains and towboats pushing barges.

Then there is another thing, petroleum is a huge portion of our economy other than just gasoline.

For instance, a partial list of products made from Petroleum (144 of 6000 items):

One 42-gallon barrel of oil creates 19.4 gallons of gasoline.

The rest (over half) is used to make things like: Solvents, Diesel fuel, Motor Oil, Bearing Grease, Ink, Floor Wax, Ballpoint Pens, Football Cleats, Upholstery, Sweaters, Boats, Insecticides, Bicycle Tires, Sports Car Bodies, Nail Polish, Fishing lures, Dresses, Tires, Golf Bags, Perfumes, Cassettes, Dishwasher parts, Tool Boxes, Shoe Polish, Motorcycle Helmets, Caulking, Petroleum Jelly, Transparent Tape, CD Players, Faucet Washers, Antiseptics, Clothesline, Curtains, Food Preservatives, Basketballs, Soap, Vitamin Capsules, Antihistamines... etc, etc etc.

BTW, Obama's (evidently permanent) ban on drilling in the gulf (while 23 other nations do), has had, at the very least, ten times the negative effect on our economy as the oil spill he used for an excuse for such an inane policy.

avfm8x.jpg


108745_600.jpg
 
  • Like
Reactions: 1 person
#10
#10
It doesn't matter if the who is in power. D and R both lick the boots of Big Oil. Natural Gas smacks of logic. LOL thats why its just a pipe dream.
 
  • Like
Reactions: 1 person
#12
#12
What about alcohol. That stuff burns very cleanly and efficiently. I remember ford testing that out in the 90s.
 
#15
#15
What about alcohol. That stuff burns very cleanly and efficiently. I remember ford testing that out in the 90s.

I just got back from Cabo. I took a leak in my gas tank, should be enough to get around for the week.

CNG vehicles are nice, but the posts already made should stitch together a decent answer as to why they're not more widespread.

Honda was producing CNG Civics up until 12 or 13 years ago.

And whoever said hydrogen fuel cells, spot on. They don't need CNG power, though. The blueprint for infrastructure is already out there, there have already been production cars that go 300 or so miles on fill-ups at gas stations that are remarkably similar to normal petrol pumps. The cost was high, but it can easily come down with economies of scale, and there has been excellent progress with producing the hydrogen needed.
 
#16
#16
I wondered the same thing this morning when I heard the price of oil vs natural gas?

Because the biggest natural gas driller is Exxon, other top 10 companies include BP, Chevron, ConocoPhillips. Why would they won't to replace an expensive product with a cheaper product?
 
#17
#17
I just got back from Cabo. I took a leak in my gas tank, should be enough to get around for the week.

CNG vehicles are nice, but the posts already made should stitch together a decent answer as to why they're not more widespread.

Honda was producing CNG Civics up until 12 or 13 years ago.

And whoever said hydrogen fuel cells, spot on. They don't need CNG power, though. The blueprint for infrastructure is already out there, there have already been production cars that go 300 or so miles on fill-ups at gas stations that are remarkably similar to normal petrol pumps. The cost was high, but it can easily come down with economies of scale, and there has been excellent progress with producing the hydrogen needed.

Do you know what the efficiency of CNG engines is? I ask because hydrogen for the time-being is going to come from steam reforming of natural gas. The efficiency of that is - in the absolute theoretical best case - 66% just to make the hydrogen. Then, you've got the losses associated with the hydrogen fuel cell, which may not be huge, but are there. You also have a much more difficult fuel storage problem. Unless CNG is is highly inefficient, I'm surprised it wouldn't win that battle.

Of course, the ultimate upside of hydrogen is using something like solar or nuclear for hydrolysis, but we don't have the nuclear infrastructure for that right now (and it isn't really on the books to come at that level) and the solar technology is still a long way from being a true reality.
 
#18
#18
Of course, I meant that as long-term, which will, here anyways, pave the way for fuel cells. Not sure what the efficiency is of CNG, but one major drawback I do remember is the mass of the storage tanks in cars and that most passenger cars couldn't accommodate more than a couple hundred miles worth of fuel.
 
#19
#19
The range does seem to be a fairly significant issue - and I'm surprised it is as bad as it is, actually. I would have thought it could reach over 200 miles or so.

Hydrogen isn't just a little ways off...between the storage problems and the fact that you the only way to make it at scale today is just taking the energy in natural gas and translating that into hydrogen (at a big efficiency hit), there are significant challenges to a "hydrogen economy." It's not shot, but it's not looking great either.

However, with that said, CNG engines may be pretty inefficient. Gasoline engines are very inefficient, and though CNG engines are better, they probably aren't all *that* much better. Given that, the efficiency may not be as bad as I think it is in comparison.

It sounds like the problem is that CNG is heavy to store on vehicles, limiting range. Hydrogen is hard to store on scale, but lighter once in vehicles, affording greater range. A clear win of hydrogen is that you can produce it at a facility equipped with CO2 sequestration, whereas you can't sequester the CO2 from a CNG engine. However, we're also a very long way from sequestration, so that's a bit of a moot point.

As seems to be too often the case, gasoline is just too darn easy.
 
#20
#20
The one advantage I did like of CNG over petrol is that natural gas is better atomized in its natural state, but that efficiency advantage is starting to disappear with production of direct cylinder injection coming to scale.
 
#22
#22
I think we're going to see frequent rapid charging by EV owners... Will destroy the battery capacity within a couple of years, then they'll be out a few grand for a new battery pack.
 
#23
#23
I just saw an electronic "pump" at my local walgreens, was cool to see I guess.

Did you see any environmentally friendly hand cranked vibrators?

If you buy a hybrid car, it will be worn out (if it works right to begin with), long before you will recoup the initial extra cost through fuel savings.
 
#24
#24
you can modify a car to run on natural gas.
They put a tank in your trunk.
It's not that difficult as you might think.
A lot of law enforcement cars in some states already have this modification.
A friend of mine was looking to buy a used one at one point because it already had been modified.
Cars in Australia are set up to run on natural gas and gasoline.

Two problems here. One finding places to go "fill up" on natural gas.
The other problem is being in an accident and having the "pressure vessel" in your trunk explode.
 
Last edited:
#25
#25
It's that and the range. If you have natural gas at home, there are ways to fill up that way. Cng retrofits cost a few grand all told.
 

VN Store



Back
Top