Why do we have the second amendment?

#1
gsvol

gsvol

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#1
Here is a pretty good article explaining the thinking of America's founding fathers.

Arms and the Greeks

Excerpts:

The founders didn't conjure up the right to bear arms out of thin air. They learned its value from the founders of Western civilization.

The creators of America's republican form of government did not make everything up as they went along. American political philosophy — including the right to keep and bear arms — was firmly grounded in historical experience and in the great works of philosophy from ancient Greece through 18th-century Britain.

The Declaration of Independence was derived from what Thomas Jefferson called, "the elementary books of public right, as Aristotle, Cicero, Locke, Sidney, etc." What did Aristotle — the most influential philosopher of Western civilization — say about the right to arms? Quite a lot that still rings true today.
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The tyrant does not begin his worst abuses until after he has disarmed his victims. (Plato)
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Plato's most important philosophic descendent is the German Georg Wilhelm Friedrich Hegel (1770 1831). Hegel provided the intellectual foundation for fascism, seeing the state as sacred, and the individual as absolutely subservient to the state. (Hegel and Plato differed on many other issues, such as the basis of perception, but their politics were essentially similar.)
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In Aristotle's book Politics, he argues that each citizen should work to earn his own living, should participate in political or legislative affairs, and should bear arms.
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Aristotle considered the possession of arms synonymous with possession of political power: "when the citizens at large administer the state for the common interest, the government is called by the generic name — a constitution . . . in a constitutional government the fighting-men have the supreme power, and those who possess arms are the citizens" (Book 3, ch VII).
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It was inevitable that control of arms would lead to control of the state: "since it is an impossible thing that those who are able to use or to resist force should be willing to remain always in subjection . . . those who carry arms can always determine the fate of the constitution" (Book 7, ch. IX).
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It was hardly surprising that dictators always disarmed their subjects: "As of oligarchy so of tyranny . . . Both mistrust the people, and therefore deprive them of their arms" (Book 5, ch X).
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..... friends of civil liberty should never forget the ultimate issue that drives the gun control movement: the determination to make armed citizens into disarmed subjects of a powerful, sometimes benign, collection of people who call themselves the government.
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#4
#4
How do tyrants exist in GS's world? If they make the laws, and liberty is defined merely according to the laws (as GS defines it), then what does tyranny even mean?
 
#6
#6
therealUT said:
How do tyrants exist in GS's world? If they make the laws, and liberty is defined merely according to the laws (as GS defines it), then what does tyranny even mean?
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If only we knew what world he was in, it might explain some of his disassociation with the real world. Unfortunately, he can't tell us as it is obvious he doesn't know what world he is in.
 
#7
#7
I don't have the time to go through all those quotes, but I was pretty sure your quote by Aristotle in Politics Book 3 Chapter VII was wrong. I looked it up, granted there are several ways to translate it, but your quote is just flat-out fabricated.

CHAPTER VII

Having established these particulars, we come to consider next the different number of governments which there are, and what they are; and first, what are their excellencies: for when we have determined this, their defects will be evident enough.

It is evident that every form of government or administration, for the words are of the same import, must contain a supreme power over the whole state, and this supreme power must necessarily be in the hands of one person, or a few, or many; and when either of these apply their power for the common good, such states are well governed; but when the interest of the one, the few, or the many who enjoy this power is alone consulted, then ill; for you must either affirm that those who make up the community are not citizens, or else let these share in the advantages of government. We usually call a state which is governed by one person for the common good, a kingdom; one that is governed by more than one, but by a few only, an aristocracy; either because the government is in the hands of the most worthy citizens, or because it is the best form for the city and its inhabitants. When the citizens at large govern for the public good, it is called a state; which is also a common name for all other governments, and these distinctions are consonant to reason; for it will not be difficult to find one person, or a very few, of very distinguished abilities, but almost impossible to meet with the majority [1279b] of a people eminent for every virtue; but if there is one common to a whole nation it is valour; for this is created and supported by numbers: for which reason in such a state the profession of arms will always have the greatest share in the government.

Now the corruptions attending each of these governments are these; a kingdom may degenerate into a tyranny, an aristocracy into an oligarchy, and a state into a democracy. Now a tyranny is a monarchy where the good of one man only is the object of government, an oligarchy considers only the rich, and a democracy only the poor; but neither of them have a common good in view.
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#8
#8
PKT_VOL said:
I don't have the time to go through all those quotes, but I was pretty sure your quote by Aristotle in Politics Book 3 Chapter VII was wrong. I looked it up, granted there are several ways to translate it, but your quote is just flat-out fabricated.
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[X] Quote or factual statement posted by gsvol proven to be falsified # 3,567,208
 
#9
#9
PKT_VOL said:
I didn't realize that you were into Greek Philosophy.
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Not so much, Socrates is my favorite except for his fatal self destructive act of suicide for civilization, what's civilized about that?

I would never kill myself to satisfy a bunch of liars.

Diogenes is number two number, I love his quizotic humor.

I lean more toward Lao Tse than any of the Greeks.

Did you get a copy of Tragedy and Hope yet?





Danl said:
If only we knew what world he was in, it might explain some of his disassociation with the real world. Unfortunately, he can't tell us as it is obvious he doesn't know what world he is in.
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You've never even stumbled into the real world yet, if and when you ever do, you'll probably run a way quickly.

Men occasionally stumble over the truth, but most of them pick themselves up and hurry off as if nothing ever happened.
Sir Winston Churchill







PKT_VOL said:
I don't have the time to go through all those quotes, but I was pretty sure your quote by Aristotle in Politics Book 3 Chapter VII was wrong. I looked it up, granted there are several ways to translate it, but your quote is just flat-out fabricated.
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What translation are you using?

Well I will treat that author wth more skepticism in the future. (since you say he was using poetic license unwisely.)

Still the lesson is that our founding fathers had good reason, going back over two millenia that it is wiser to have an armed cizenry than not.

Does anyone on this board advocate for the repeal of the second amendment?
 
#13
#13
MystifyingVol said:
Specifically? Give us some statistics, not just a generic statement pertaining to unspecified circumstances.
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I'm a supporter of the 2nd Amendment. I believe everyone has the right to own and carry guns. As many as they want. I do. No registration should be needed.

However, I don't know what "guns" means. Seriously. I do not want some of my neighbors down the street to own advanced weaponry, anti-aircraft weapons, armed drones, etc.

For discussion: Where do you draw the line, or do you?
 
#14
#14
Danl said:
I'm a supporter of the 2nd Amendment. I believe everyone has the right to own and carry guns. As many as they want. I do. No registration should be needed.

However, I don't know what "guns" means. Seriously. I do not want some of my neighbors down the street to own advanced weaponry, anti-aircraft weapons, armed drones, etc.

For discussion: Where do you draw the line, or do you?
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Hey man, according to the gun nuts a well armed militia needs some anti-aircraft missiles these days. You know, to shoot down the US Air Force planes once the Obama tyranny moves into full swing.
 
#16
#16
Danl said:
I'm a supporter of the 2nd Amendment. I believe everyone has the right to own and carry guns. As many as they want. I do. No registration should be needed.

However, I don't know what "guns" means. Seriously. I do not want some of my neighbors down the street to own advanced weaponry, anti-aircraft weapons, armed drones, etc.

For discussion: Where do you draw the line, or do you?
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I do not draw the line.
 
#17
#17
lawgator1 said:
Hey man, according to the gun nuts a well armed militia needs some anti-aircraft missiles these days. You know, to shoot down the US Air Force planes once the Obama tyranny moves into full swing.
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Seriously, I am not certain that that is not the correct interpretation. I have grave misgivings about individual citizens being so armed, though.
 
#18
#18
lawgator1 said:
Hey man, according to the gun nuts a well armed militia needs some anti-aircraft missiles these days. You know, to shoot down the US Air Force planes once the Obama tyranny moves into full swing.
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You sidestepped my question and tried to paint all pro-gun people as nuts in 2 sentences. I never said anti-aircraft missiles. I asked for your statics to support your position.

@Danl. I don't draw a line, but I understand your concern.
 
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