All Time NBA Players Thread - No Jordan vs. Lebron Debate Allowed

#502
#502
Chauncey Billups - I think he's pretty over-appreciated. I think it's fine that he makes the HoF, but few players have 1 title doing more work for them than Chauncey's 2004 run.
Vince Carter - was must-see TV but didn't result in a lot of winning and the Toronto departure was an awful chapter. He also belongs in the HoF, of course.
Michael Cooper - one of the worst HoFers ever? Great defensive player. 1 DPOY, 8 all-defensive teams, and 5 titles...but he wasn't even a starter and only averaged 12, 4, and 5 per 36*. Also, I have avoided the details, but I hear the domestic violence with him was really bad.

In terms of player inductees, is this the worst class of HoFers ever?

*For reference, Draymond averages 11, 9, and 7, 1 fewer title, same defensive honors, but has 4 all-star appearances and 2x all-NBA honors, and we're (correctly) debating his HoF credentials. I assume he's adding all-defensive honors this year, too. Just seems like Cooper is one of those guys that will be mentioned when we talk about how low the bar is.
 
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#507
#507
If Jokic wins MVP and a second title we are having the top 15 all time talk
 
#508
#508
zjcvols said:
If Jokic wins MVP and a second title we are having the top 15 all time talk
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For sure. Just needs a little longevity. If he retired this summer, that might work against him too much. There are 1-title, 1 MVP guys that get top 15 talk.
 
#510
#510
Bill Simmons and Ryen Russillo had a great convo yesterday about Lebron's place in Laker history and culture.

The interesting part was about Kobe and Lakers culture. Both hosts are outsiders in LA and they were talking about how half of Lakers fans are just Kobe fans. Russillo said he was at the beach during game 2 of the Nuggets series and there were Kobe jerseys everywhere. "That's the guy who wants to argue with you about Kobe being better than Lebron."

RR said he was talking to some guys at the gym after Lakers were sent home and he asks them "are you guys upset?" And it came off like they were a little giddy to say "Kobe would've never got swept."
 
#512
#512
n_huffhines said:
Bill Simmons and Ryen Russillo had a great convo yesterday about Lebron's place in Laker history and culture.

The interesting part was about Kobe and Lakers culture. Both hosts are outsiders in LA and they were talking about how half of Lakers fans are just Kobe fans. Russillo said he was at the beach during game 2 of the Nuggets series and there were Kobe jerseys everywhere. "That's the guy who wants to argue with you about Kobe being better than Lebron."

RR said he was talking to some guys at the gym after Lakers were sent home and he asks them "are you guys upset?" And it came off like they were a little giddy to say "Kobe would've never got swept."
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Why do you think there is this obsession in the NBA of comparing guys from different eras, and specifically a need to definitively determine which player is better than the other? In other sports, fans seem to be OK with saying that you can't really tell if Player X was player than Player Y, for a variety of reasons, but they were both among the best players of their era and the conversation gets left at that.

It happens to a certain extent in every sport, but it seems to be a bigger deal in basketball. There isn't the same level of intensity surrounding the question "Was Barry Bonds a better hitter than Babe Ruth" in baseball than "Is LeBron better than MJ?"
 
#513
#513
05_never_again said:
Why do you think there is this obsession in the NBA of comparing guys from different eras, and specifically a need to definitively determine which player is better than the other? In other sports, fans seem to be OK with saying that you can't really tell if Player X was player than Player Y, for a variety of reasons, but they were both among the best players of their era and the conversation gets left at that.

It happens to a certain extent in every sport, but it seems to be a bigger deal in basketball. There isn't the same level of intensity surrounding the question "Was Barry Bonds a better hitter than Babe Ruth" in baseball than "Is LeBron better than MJ?"
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I think part of it is that high-profile athletes get people talking, and the NBA has the highest-profile athletes. I think that may be the entire basketball-related explanation.

I think other explanations are specific to Lebron and MJ....they get 70% of the eras talk and the reason there is so much of it is that it's actually a tight GOAT race and it's all recent history. Bonds vs. Ruth may be a a tight GOAT race, but one of them is ancient history. Manning vs. Brady is recent history, but not a tight race.

BTW, Kobe and Lebron were same era.
 
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#514
#514
Sorry in advance to @zjcvols

On his pod, BS said he had '89 Pistons as the 4th best team all time when he wrote his book (I think 15 years ago)...are the bad boy Pistons the most overrated team all-time? Am I way off base on this? I think their branding and the fact that they beat MJ and Magic has elevated their status. Magic only played in 2 finals games. Kareem was 41. MJ was 25 and Pippen was 22. The bad boys lost to the Lakers when they weren't so old and lost to the Bulls when they weren't so green. Two short guards + Laimbeer in the starting 5? No top 20 player. Zeke and Rodman were the only top 75 players. That's the 4th best team? I can't accept that
 
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#515
#515
n_huffhines said:
Sorry in advance to @zjcvols

On his pod, BS said he had '89 Pistons as the 4th best team all time when he wrote his book (I think 15 years ago)...are the bad boy Pistons the most overrated team all-time? Am I way off base on this? I think their branding and the fact that they beat MJ and Magic has elevated their status. Magic only played in 2 finals games. Kareem was 41. MJ was 25 and Pippen was 22. The bad boys lost to the Lakers when they weren't so old and lost to the Bulls when they weren't so green. Two short guards + Laimbeer in the starting 5? No top 20 player. Zeke and Rodman were the only top 75 players. That's the 4th best team? I can't accept that
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They absolutely smashed in the regular season that year (63 wins in a pretty tough league) went 15-2 and handled LA even against Magic (before he got hurt). Had 3 top 100 players plus three great role guys (Vinnie, Laimbeer, Aguirre) and then repeated next year with 59 wins and only had one tough series against Jordan. That Blazers team they beat 4-1 was awesome that year (also 59 wins) and they should have won in ‘88 (arguably their best team with Dantley) but got screwed in the Finals. I don’t know about individually but for a three year run it’s as good as it gets post Russell’s Celts.
 
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#516
#516
n_huffhines said:
I think part of it is that high-profile athletes get people talking, and the NBA has the highest-profile athletes. I think that may be the entire basketball-related explanation.

I think other explanations are specific to Lebron and MJ....they get 70% of the eras talk and the reason there is so much of it is that it's actually a tight GOAT race and it's all recent history. Bonds vs. Ruth may be a a tight GOAT race, but one of them is ancient history. Manning vs. Brady is recent history, but not a tight race.

BTW, Kobe and Lebron were same era.
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You mention Kobe and LeBron in the same era and it’s insane to think do this.

LeBron and Ant were drafted 17 years apart.

Kobe and Giannis were drafted 17 years apart.

Duncan and Jokic were drafted 17 years apart

Just speaks to how absolutely insane LeBron’s longevity is.
 
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#517
#517
zjcvols said:
You mention Kobe and LeBron in the same era and it’s insane to think do this.

LeBron and Ant were drafted 17 years apart.

Kobe and Giannis were drafted 17 years apart.

Duncan and Jokic were drafted 17 years apart

Just speaks to how absolutely insane LeBron’s longevity is.
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That is insane. Stealing it.
 
#518
#518
n_huffhines said:
Bill Simmons and Ryen Russillo had a great convo yesterday about Lebron's place in Laker history and culture.

The interesting part was about Kobe and Lakers culture. Both hosts are outsiders in LA and they were talking about how half of Lakers fans are just Kobe fans. Russillo said he was at the beach during game 2 of the Nuggets series and there were Kobe jerseys everywhere. "That's the guy who wants to argue with you about Kobe being better than Lebron."

RR said he was talking to some guys at the gym after Lakers were sent home and he asks them "are you guys upset?" And it came off like they were a little giddy to say "Kobe would've never got swept."
Click to expand...

That’s funny because Kobe did get swept multiple times in the playoffs.

People who claim that they are Laker fans but are really just Kobe fans are the most annoying part of NBA fandom. They have been since like 2003.
 
#521
#521
This a pretty good pod. The host usually covers current events, but he's a hoop-head. The Cliff's notes (they end up talking about more than 5 guys):

- MJ developed a mid-range game, and jump shooting became cool.
- The Spurs discovered the value of the corner 3 but on the defensive side. Their strategy was to take it away. Eventually, they realized they should try to get corner 3s on offense, and Bruce Bowen became the first guy labeled "3 and D."
- Iverson made ballhandling as cool as dunking and scoring.
- Kobe popularized heliocentrism in the post-Shaq era, and his getting locked up in the Pistons series was the last straw for hand-checking.
- Nash and the 7-seconds or less Suns.
- Ginobili legitimized international players like the bigs couldn't. His success winning in the NBA, beating Team USA, and earning gold in the Olympics, the Euro step, etc. He's the most important foreign-born player.
- Steph, not just because of the 3p explosion, but because he also popularized moneyballing practice and workouts. For example, after Danny Green's length really bothered Steph in the 2014 playoffs, he and his trainer realized there is always space behind you. They developed and perfected the footwork so he could do step-backs in 5 different directions, like a clock face.
- The small ball revolution wasn't really a revolution, it was just a blip because it only worked for 1 team and now the game is dominated by do-it-all bigs who you have to beef up for.

I think the biggest thing they failed to mention was allowing zone D.

www.theringer.com

The Five Superstars Who Invented the Modern NBA

Kirk Goldsberry, author of ‘Hoop Atlas,’ talks with Derek about the players who have caused paradigm shifts in the way the game is played
www.theringer.com www.theringer.com
 
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#523
#523
zjcvols said:
Kidd/Nash/Payton is such a super fun debate. All three have such a good case
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For me, this is so easy. It's Kidd and it's not even close.

Nash was right system right time. Kidd had more team success as the guy (with less around him, but of course the west was much tougher). And Nash could've never done what Kidd did with the 2011 Mavs.

Payton was as talented, if not moreso, but he was a headache and not well-liked by teammates.

Kidd had the size, athleticism, and he was the most skilled passer since Magic. He could do everything but shoot, and then he even learned to do that.

My favorite Kidd story is that when he was at Cal, Arizona had two future star NBA guards and another All-American and none of them could bring the ball up with Kidd on them. Lute Olsen's rule was you gave it up when he pressed you.
 
#524
#524
n_huffhines said:
For me, this is so easy. It's Kidd and it's not even close.

Nash was right system right time. Kidd had more team success as the guy (with less around him, but of course the west was much tougher). And Nash could've never done what Kidd did with the 2011 Mavs.

Payton was as talented, if not moreso, but he was a headache and not well-liked by teammates.

Kidd had the size, athleticism, and he was the most skilled passer since Magic. He could do everything but shoot, and then he even learned to do that.

My favorite Kidd story is that when he was at Cal, Arizona had two future star NBA guards and another All-American and none of them could bring the ball up with Kidd on them. Lute Olsen's rule was you gave it up when he pressed you.
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This is my take on the three

Payton- At their highest peak, Payton was the best

Nash- Had the most impact on the sport, best teammate

Kidd- Best all-around player of the 3.

I would say with Payton, definitely a headache, but Kidd was before New Jersey and wore out his welcome in Dallas and Phoenix.
 
#525
#525
Kidd’s inability to score inside the paint was a real problem as the lead guy. It’s too bad he never found a truly great scorer to play with until he was in his 30’s
 
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