Does this offense really need 10 receivers?

[McDad]

Kind of a Catch-22. At Cincy, you get mostly under-recruited guys who need to develop. They don't expect to play right away most of the time so while you are developing them physically... they're learning the complex skills.

When you get the top tier WR recruits/athletes, they expect to play right away... long before they're likely to have mastered those skills.

You are unlikely to win at UT with WR's that are willing to develop for 3 years before playing a lot... but you really can't accelerate the learning of the top recruits very much... so you may not be able to win with them either.

Have you researched the Cincy roster to see if that dynamic was in effect (WRs who developed for 2-3 years before contributing significantly )?

I haven't. But it would be interesting to see.

ETA: Emmitt Smith's license plate on his SUV was "CATCH 22".

 

[sjt18]

Have you researched the Cincy roster to see if that dynamic was in effect (WRs who developed for 2-3 years before contributing significantly )?

I haven't. But it would be interesting to see.

ETA: Emmitt Smith's license plate on his SUV was "CATCH 22".

Eleven of the top 5 WR's from Jones' 3 years were upperclassmen. I'm not sure how many were RS. I only saw two Fr that were in the top 5 for any of Jones' 3 seasons there.

Obviously most of his players were developed by Kelly.

I'm not sure exactly what it might mean but Cincy got a lot younger at WR in the year after Jones left. Four of their 5 top WR's were Sophs. They increased their passing yds/game from 238 to 303 under Tuberville.

 

[McDad]

Eleven of the top 5 WR's from Jones' 3 years were upperclassmen. I'm not sure how many were RS. I only saw two Fr that were in the top 5 for any of Jones' 3 seasons there.

Obviously most of his players were developed by Kelly.

I'm not sure exactly what it might mean but Cincy got a lot younger at WR in the year after Jones left. Four of their 5 top WR's were Sophs. They increased their passing yds/game from 238 to 303 under Tuberville.

Gives credence to your theory.

 

[sechamp2012]

Seems Coach has yet to define or locate his Cooper. In general, I'm not for this coaching philosophy going in to a season -- maybe it's planned, based on what was seen in summer/fall, b/c the 9-10 twindled to fewer (receivers):

RECEIVING STATISTICS
NAME REC YDS AVG LONG TD
Josh Malone 29 388 13.4 75 (TD) 2
Von Pearson 33 337 10.2 45 1
Ethan Wolf 21 277 13.2 34 2
Josh Smith 19 257 13.5 39 (TD) 2
Alvin Kamara 29 220 7.6 23 3
Preston Williams 7 158 22.6 49 2
Jalen Hurd 17 155 9.1 37 (TD) 2
Jauan Jennings 13 142 10.9 30 0
Johnathon John 9 107 11.9 24 0
Joshua Dobbs 1 58 58.0 58 (TD) 1
Marquez North 5 46 9.2 16 0
Alex Ellis 5 43 8.6 24 0
Pig Howard 1 8 8.0 8 0
Totals 189 2196 11.6 75 15
(per espn)

There was also lots of extra yardage left on the field, by dropped passes (more/same/less than avg, ??).

OP says 9 or 10 WR's. The above shows 6 WR's discounting Pig and the RB's & TE's. So where is the 9 or 10 WR's OP speaks of???

 

[sechamp2012]

2012 we had 13 receivers....
1 Justin Hunter JR WR 12 73 1083 14.84 9 6.1 90.3
2 Cordarrelle Patterson JR WR 12 46 778 16.91 5 3.8 64.8
3 Mychal Rivera SR TE 12 36 562 15.61 5 3.0 46.8
4 Zach Rogers SR WR 12 32 491 15.34 7 2.7 40.9
5 Marlin Lane Jr. SO RB 12 29 228 7.86 0 2.4 19.0
6 Rajion Neal JR RB 10 19 149 7.84 4 1.9 14.9
7 Vincent Dallas SO WR 12 9 149 16.56 1 0.8 12.4
8 Jacob Carter JR WR 11 8 126 15.75 1 0.7 11.5
9 Ben Bartholomew SR RB 12 11 102 9.27 1 0.9 8.5
10 Alton Howard FR WR 10 13 54 4.15 1 1.3 5.4
11 Brendan Downs SO TE 10 3 39 13.00 1 0.3 3.9
12 Quenshaun Watson FR RB 6 1 17 17.00 0 0.2 2.8
13 Devrin Young SO RB 10 5 9 1.80 0 0.5 0.9
Total 12 285 3787 13.29 35 23.8 315.6
Opponents 12 272 3390 12.46 26 22.7 282.5

 

[Crazy Ivan]

2012 we had 13 receivers....
1 Justin Hunter JR WR 12 73 1083 14.84 9 6.1 90.3
2 Cordarrelle Patterson JR WR 12 46 778 16.91 5 3.8 64.8
3 Mychal Rivera SR TE 12 36 562 15.61 5 3.0 46.8
4 Zach Rogers SR WR 12 32 491 15.34 7 2.7 40.9
5 Marlin Lane Jr. SO RB 12 29 228 7.86 0 2.4 19.0
6 Rajion Neal JR RB 10 19 149 7.84 4 1.9 14.9
7 Vincent Dallas SO WR 12 9 149 16.56 1 0.8 12.4
8 Jacob Carter JR WR 11 8 126 15.75 1 0.7 11.5
9 Ben Bartholomew SR RB 12 11 102 9.27 1 0.9 8.5
10 Alton Howard FR WR 10 13 54 4.15 1 1.3 5.4
11 Brendan Downs SO TE 10 3 39 13.00 1 0.3 3.9
12 Quenshaun Watson FR RB 6 1 17 17.00 0 0.2 2.8
13 Devrin Young SO RB 10 5 9 1.80 0 0.5 0.9
Total 12 285 3787 13.29 35 23.8 315.6
Opponents 12 272 3390 12.46 26 22.7 282.5

Lane, Neal, Young, Watson, and Bartholomew were RBs. Downs and Rivera were TEs.

 

[volboy81]

Since most seem to stay hurt most of the time......yes!!

 

[KBVol]

2012 we had 13 receivers....
1 Justin Hunter JR WR 12 73 1083 14.84 9 6.1 90.3
2 Cordarrelle Patterson JR WR 12 46 778 16.91 5 3.8 64.8
3 Mychal Rivera SR TE 12 36 562 15.61 5 3.0 46.8
4 Zach Rogers SR WR 12 32 491 15.34 7 2.7 40.9
5 Marlin Lane Jr. SO RB 12 29 228 7.86 0 2.4 19.0
6 Rajion Neal JR RB 10 19 149 7.84 4 1.9 14.9
7 Vincent Dallas SO WR 12 9 149 16.56 1 0.8 12.4
8 Jacob Carter JR WR 11 8 126 15.75 1 0.7 11.5
9 Ben Bartholomew SR RB 12 11 102 9.27 1 0.9 8.5
10 Alton Howard FR WR 10 13 54 4.15 1 1.3 5.4
11 Brendan Downs SO TE 10 3 39 13.00 1 0.3 3.9
12 Quenshaun Watson FR RB 6 1 17 17.00 0 0.2 2.8
13 Devrin Young SO RB 10 5 9 1.80 0 0.5 0.9
Total 12 285 3787 13.29 35 23.8 315.6
Opponents 12 272 3390 12.46 26 22.7 282.5

You included tight ends and running backs.

 

[utvols74]

I'll take 5 receivers who can catch the ball if it touches their hands/gloves. That'll leave the remainder for CB/FS/SS who can play "bump/run" and lock-down the outside when needs be.

 

[MrBiggles]

We could use 4-5 TE

 

[BigOrangeTrain]

It's got to be harder for a QB and WR to get on the same page with so many in the rotation.

Agreed. But Dobbs sucks and its all his fault.

 

[Carl Pickens]

Timing and rhythm is a big part of a effective passing game. Too many personnel groupings with this offense has been one of things i dislike the most about it.

This is my gripe as well. I can't stand seeing a player get hot and then go out of the game. Running such a fast paced offense has to put a strain on the receivers though.

 

[Carl Pickens]

The offense that we currently run, is not receiver orientated. Just imagine if we had Dormady, Ainge, Clausen, etc. as the q.b.
Any of those q.b.'s would have 4,000 this season and we would still have 2 different 1,000 yard running backs.
Look at the receivers that we have! Some could start on other S.E.C. teams roster and others could start at non S.E.C. schools. We are not lacking talent but we are lacking a q.b. who is a gun slinger and an offense that pushes the receiving part of the playbook.

Think before you post

 

[thebjd]

We rotate too much at receiver in my opinion. It would probably help Dobbs as well if he had to get on the same page with fewer of them. I know Malone had the big drop but he and Dobbs seem to have some chemistry on the field.

 

[majic73]

Agree. No we don't need that many WRs. 6 or 7 TOPS. I'm thinking more 5-6 in the regular rotation (not 10) with 3-4 on the roster for depth.

Negative my friend . In this offense , 10 is a minimum . This offense uses 4 receivers a play on most plays. The offense features a power running game and the receivers are expected to block physically on every running play and get in position to be second level blockers since there is never a fullback on the field and often a tight end is not on the field . For most games they want to run 'tempo' and the goal is to run 65 - 90 snaps a game . In order to keep the Wrs legs fresh and have no fall off , they have to shuttle and package . The packaging also allows different personnel groups to focus on different packages . With limited practice time ..platooning allows more diversity in play calling . Depth down the stretch is another thing. You switch from jogging 1 mile a day to 1.5 miles a day , it doesnt seem to be a big deal ...but weekly that is 3.5 miles more . 20 snaps a game adds up late in the season , injuries develop and games are lost
More bodies means less wear and tear injuries

This also applies to defensive linemen

 

[Catbone]

Yes, because with out luck and poor WR coaching we will have at least 6 season ending injuries.

 

[Hank Bukowski]

Remember at the start of the year hearing our coaching staff say that this style of offense needs to use a large number of receivers...9 or 10....to be effective.
Obviously, that hasn't happened with all of the injuries.
Do we really need this many?
Do other teams that run our offense shuttle that many?

I would much rather see us settle this spring on 6 or 7 go to guys.

Yes, seeing as only one or two of them can seem to get open.

 

[thebjd]

Negative my friend . In this offense , 10 is a minimum . This offense uses 4 receivers a play on most plays. The offense features a power running game and the receivers are expected to block physically on every running play and get in position to be second level blockers since there is never a fullback on the field and often a tight end is not on the field . For most games they want to run 'tempo' and the goal is to run 65 - 90 snaps a game . In order to keep the Wrs legs fresh and have no fall off , they have to shuttle and package . The packaging also allows different personnel groups to focus on different packages . With limited practice time ..platooning allows more diversity in play calling . Depth down the stretch is another thing. You switch from jogging 1 mile a day to 1.5 miles a day , it doesnt seem to be a big deal ...but weekly that is 3.5 miles more . 20 snaps a game adds up late in the season , injuries develop and games are lost
More bodies means less wear and tear injuries

This also applies to defensive linemen

I would sacrifice a play or two to have a semblance of fluidity in the passing game.

 

[KBVol]

Negative my friend . In this offense , 10 is a minimum . This offense uses 4 receivers a play on most plays. The offense features a power running game and the receivers are expected to block physically on every running play and get in position to be second level blockers since there is never a fullback on the field and often a tight end is not on the field . For most games they want to run 'tempo' and the goal is to run 65 - 90 snaps a game . In order to keep the Wrs legs fresh and have no fall off , they have to shuttle and package . The packaging also allows different personnel groups to focus on different packages . With limited practice time ..platooning allows more diversity in play calling . Depth down the stretch is another thing. You switch from jogging 1 mile a day to 1.5 miles a day , it doesnt seem to be a big deal ...but weekly that is 3.5 miles more . 20 snaps a game adds up late in the season , injuries develop and games are lost
More bodies means less wear and tear injuries

This also applies to defensive linemen

Way overthinking this IMO. While your comments aren't wrong, I'm not sure how much they apply or are particularly relevant. The most prolific season our program has ever had was 1997....when we ran 68 plays per game, only 7 fewer per game than we've run/averaged this year.....and we did it playing primarily 4 WRs who were also required to be physical and block for a 1,300 yd running back.

I've heard Doug Mathews, Joey Kent and Jayson Swain all discuss this and they all agreed that there's not only no need to have 9-10 WRs in the regular rotation, but indeed that it could be detrimental to the passing game when trying to grow chemistry with the QB and to keep the WRs mentally focused/involved in the game. I've also heard Mathews and Swain lament the 9-10 WR or "more WRs is better" philosophy because of the different times the last couple seasons when we've not had our best WRs in the game to throw to at critical points in games because they were on the sidelines due solely to the substitution pattern.

It's also been suggested that one of the reasons we've seen the WRs produce at a higher level since the Georgia game is partially due to having fewer WRs to be healthy and play. Obviously, I'm buying that. Give me the best 5-6 WRs we have in a regular rotation and the rest on the roster to be developed and for depth needed due to injury.

Finally, we don't really don't run 4 receiver sets, at all. We typically have a RB, TE, a slot and 2 wides. We've actually seen both Hurd and Kamara on the field at the same time a decent number of times, meaning we have times where we have only 2 WRs on the field. Rarely do we ever run an empty set with Dobbs alone in the backfield.

 

[majic73]

Way overthinking this IMO. While your comments aren't wrong, I'm not sure how much they apply or are particularly relevant. The most prolific season our program has ever had was 1997....when we ran 68 plays per game, only 7 fewer per game than we've run/averaged this year.....and we did it playing primarily 4 WRs who were also required to be physical and block for a 1,300 yd running back.

I've heard Doug Mathews, Joey Kent and Jayson Swain all discuss this and they all agreed that there's not only no need to have 9-10 WRs in the regular rotation, but indeed that it could be detrimental to the passing game when trying to grow chemistry with the QB and to keep the WRs mentally focused/involved in the game. I've also heard Mathews and Swain lament the 9-10 WR or "more WRs is better" philosophy because of the different times the last couple seasons when we've not had our best WRs in the game to throw to at critical points in games because they were on the sidelines due solely to the substitution pattern.

It's also been suggested that one of the reasons we've seen the WRs produce at a higher level since the Georgia game is partially due to having fewer WRs to be healthy and play. Obviously, I'm buying that. Give me the best 5-6 WRs we have in a regular rotation and the rest on the roster to be developed and for depth needed due to injury.

Finally, we don't really don't run 4 receiver sets, at all. We typically have a RB, TE, a slot and 2 wides. We've actually seen both Hurd and Kamara on the field at the same time a decent number of times, meaning we have times where we have only 2 WRs on the field. Rarely do we ever run an empty set with Dobbs alone in the backfield.

I get what you are saying . Its really not that big of a stretch to have and x y and two slots ...and then the guys behind them . I think the difference in the modern game and games of previous eras that you noted is the 'platooning' that is done at the schools that have the recruits to have that luxury . Group A works package 1 , group B works package 2 ect . In theory this gives you more specialization and diversity in matchups. If a corner is seeing a go route and playing against a speedy guy ...and then you stick him with a physical , possession receiver. This is the mind set of many modern spread teams . Also I think , IMO , that this is a symptom of us having so many young guys . If we have a class of seniors ...you may see the same 3 or 4 guys over and over .

 

[SobeVol]

We may need 10.
Debord does love his screen pass after he tries running up the middle nearly every first and 20.