How bad/good is our coaching, really?

#26
#26
Is the question just isolated to game-day coaching ability? Or just overall as a coach? I don't think the answer to either question is cut and dry. He does some things really well, and other things really bad.

Things he does well:
- recruit
- getting his players to believe they can come back from a large deficit when it seems impossible
- run a clean program

Things he does poorly:
- in-game decision making - there are just too many examples to go through. The 1st red flag for me was back in '14 when we tried the on-side kick against Missouri and we obviously touched it prior to the ball going 10 yards. Jones burned a timeout challenging that, which made it impossible that we'd get the ball back for 1 last desperation drive.
- relating to the fans. It's been a parade of cliches and tone-deaf rants. He just keeps saying stuff that make us a laughing stock
- have our best players get hurt year after year. I know this isn't really in his control, but at some point, if you're this unlucky with injuries, we need somebody else who's a bit luckier.
- get all the pieces working together. We have a fair amount of talent, but the most talented tend to either not produce or transfer/quit. Eventually the highest-rated recruits won't look our way because of this.
 
#27
#27
wtmvol said:
Is the question just isolated to game-day coaching ability? Or just overall as a coach? I don't think the answer to either question is cut and dry. He does some things really well, and other things really bad.

Things he does well:
- recruit
- getting his players to believe they can come back from a large deficit when it seems impossible
- run a clean program

Things he does poorly:
- in-game decision making - there are just too many examples to go through. The 1st red flag for me was back in '14 when we tried the on-side kick against Missouri and we obviously touched it prior to the ball going 10 yards. Jones burned a timeout challenging that, which made it impossible that we'd get the ball back for 1 last desperation drive.
- relating to the fans. It's been a parade of cliches and tone-deaf rants. He just keeps saying stuff that make us a laughing stock
- have our best players get hurt year after year. I know this isn't really in his control, but at some point, if you're this unlucky with injuries, we need somebody else who's a bit luckier.
- get all the pieces working together. We have a fair amount of talent, but the most talented tend to either not produce or transfer/quit. Eventually the highest-rated recruits won't look our way because of this.
Click to expand...

I wouldn't say clean program
 
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#28
#28
Most players regress under Jones and that is the evidence you need. There have been a handful of players who have over performed their potential to serviceable SEC players like Jumper, Sutton, and Thomas but Thomas doesn't even start anymore.
 
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#29
#29
We're running an offensive system with a QB who is not suited for it. We have talented young players who are not seeing the field because they haven't memorized a long and complex chart even though those same young players could probably perform better on instinct than less talented veterans who supposedly know the chart. Special teams has collapsed. Injuries are piling up despite the much ballyhooed S&C changes. The head coach is attacking the media. But everything's cool and our coaching is just fine.
 
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#30
#30
81Orange said:
The only true valuation of a coach is where his teams finish year in and year out. A top ten coach will have his team finish in the top ten. I am not looking for a mathematical calculation, just a general expectation. For example, Nick Saban is a top 5 coach. I would not argue if someone said he is a top two coach or number 1.

I am not looking to establish an exact ranking of coaches, and I don't need to consider outlying years good or bad. You don't need to even be specific about which pole or computers program are used.

Looking at 2015-2016 UT finished around 22 in the CFP. So Butch is in the top 25. This says nothing about potential etc. I choose to ignore Butch's first two years because of the state of the program he took over. It is interesting that I am evaluating on two years when it seems he has been here forever. I could throw out last year for injuries but it would not change the rank any.

The great thing about this method is I can ignore all the little stuff everyone likes to at pick on so much, and go straight to an evaluation.

Has Butch reached his ceiling? Butch and his staff all have impact on where the team finishes. Ultimately Butch gets credit for the record, but a better staff can bring a better record. I don't think the former staff was as good as the current staff, and I think there is still room for improvement. I think the current staff could regularly finish in the top 20. With better staff Butch could easily move into the 10-15 range.

Don't tell me Butch should have have hired a better staff. He hired what he could afford, just like most other coaches not named Saban.

Is a top 10-15 coach good enough? It is certainly good enough to fill seats and keep the cash flowing. This meets the administration requirements. It is not likely good enough to satisfy fans looking for a championship every 4-5 years. For this we need a Saban, but is the championship worth the extra expense in salary?
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There's some mental gymnastics going on here. You're putting a whole lot of emphasis on rankings that don't tell the full story about coaching. UT being ranked in the top 20 is nothing to gloat about, you could make a case that a "top 10-15" coach would regularly have UT a lot higher. Furthermore, you throw your whole foundation of "you're as good as your final ranking" out of the window by suggesting that Jones *easily* could be a top 10-15 coach had he put together a better staff (which is his responsibility as head coach). Finally, after all those mental hurdles to make Jones appear near elite you ask if that's not good enough. Try and keep things simple, do you think Jones can/will win a championship (a real one not a life championship) at UT? If the answer is no ask yourself if not competing for championships is good enough for you.
 
#31
#31
81Orange said:
The only true valuation of a coach is where his teams finish year in and year out. A top ten coach will have his team finish in the top ten. I am not looking for a mathematical calculation, just a general expectation. For example, Nick Saban is a top 5 coach. I would not argue if someone said he is a top two coach or number 1.

I am not looking to establish an exact ranking of coaches, and I don't need to consider outlying years good or bad. You don't need to even be specific about which pole or computers program are used.

Looking at 2015-2016 UT finished around 22 in the CFP. So Butch is in the top 25. This says nothing about potential etc. I choose to ignore Butch's first two years because of the state of the program he took over. It is interesting that I am evaluating on two years when it seems he has been here forever. I could throw out last year for injuries but it would not change the rank any.

The great thing about this method is I can ignore all the little stuff everyone likes to at pick on so much, and go straight to an evaluation.

Has Butch reached his ceiling? Butch and his staff all have impact on where the team finishes. Ultimately Butch gets credit for the record, but a better staff can bring a better record. I don't think the former staff was as good as the current staff, and I think there is still room for improvement. I think the current staff could regularly finish in the top 20. With better staff Butch could easily move into the 10-15 range.

Don't tell me Butch should have have hired a better staff. He hired what he could afford, just like most other coaches not named Saban.

Is a top 10-15 coach good enough? It is certainly good enough to fill seats and keep the cash flowing. This meets the administration requirements. It is not likely good enough to satisfy fans looking for a championship every 4-5 years. For this we need a Saban, but is the championship worth the extra expense in salary?
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i think Butch is a good coach, and an above average program manager. he's also an above average recruiter, that "gets it" from the standpoint of the 'student athlete' and what all that entails...structure, class, APR, grades, going to class, high character, involved in the community, overall culture building, and playing with effort.

he's not a good game day coach, or game manager, and he tends to wear his heart on his sleeve, and struggles with outside influence. he's a control freak, type a personality, that probably needs contrarian personalities around him strong enough to influence him (even if just a little bit), or maybe better said, to reel him in, at times.

i think he's probably hit the ceiling here, as far as what should be the expectations results wise, vs. what he just is.

most of his deficiencies have to do with his personality and overall ability to understand his own limitations, and not be aware of them, or not willing. a lot of coaches probably fall in to this trap, they're geared to be leaders, geared to believe in their way, their process, and to a certain extent, most have some experience with success that drives that for them.

he's not a bad guy, and he's not been bad for this program. to the contrary, he's been very good for this program...up to this point. he completed the 1st priority upon arriving in Knoxville. i don't think he can complete the 2nd.
 
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#32
#32
If you ranked all 130 FBS coaches, Butch is probably in the 40s. There are a lot of bad coaches out there. Overall as a coach, I think he's pretty average. Within his coaching job duties, he does some of them pretty well and others not so well.

Positives:
- Recruiting. His recruiting classes are pretty consistently highly rated, both within the SEC and overall.
- His teams stay out of trouble for the most part (at least to date), both with respect to NCAA rules and players not getting arrested/in legal trouble.
- His teams don't quit and very rarely can be accused of a lack of effort.
- He dug the program out of a deep hole and re-energized the fanbase. That was not an easy task and he achieved it.

Negatives:
- Talent evaluation is average at best. I think he has recruited some guys (Marquez North, Josh Malone, Jalen Hurd, even Quinten Dormady comes to mind) purely because of star rating and not necessarily because they fit into his offense.
- He does not change his offensive scheme to fit his personnel, or always recruit personnel who fit his scheme. He ran a read option offense with Justin Worley, Jalen Hurd, and now Quinten Dormady. The fact that Alvin Kamara did not become our starting RB until Hurd quit the team is probably his single biggest indictment as a head coach. Josh Dobbs and Kamara were a dynamite read option offense duo, and they were on the field at the same time nowhere near enough.
- Player development is average at best. His offensive lines in particular have been made up of highly touted, highly recruited guys but are consistently average to below average.
- Despite his recruiting being a strength overall, his depth at certain positions (LB in particular) is poor and not good enough to compete at a high level.
- His teams frequently appear unprepared to play games (especially the past couple of years).
- Game day coaching is average at best. He frequently makes curious play calling and clock management decisions.

I'm not going to put cliches and how he deals with the media as a negative because let's face it: that's only a negative because he doesn't win enough (which is a symptom of the negatives above). Nobody cares about cliches, Champions of Life, or 5-star hearts if he's winning 10-11 games a year and going to Atlanta. I also won't put injuries as a negative because it is highly debatable to what degree they are the fault of the coaching staff.
 
#33
#33
Booker512 said:
https://youtu.be/XmlTWz4dyxg

You want to see a well coached football team? Go watch that highlight video. Watch how well their O line executes. Watch Bryant play QB, keep in mind he was a 3 star as you watch him play. Watch how aggressive their Dline is, how their linebackers are never all over the place, guessing at plays and don't miss every tackle like Jumper...

Then remember, in 2016, their HC and Butch...made the same amount of money....
And in 2016, Venables made just a little bit more than Bob Shoop did...

Funny ole world, isn't it?
Click to expand...


A lot of that same coaching staff that gave up 70 points to West Virgnia in 2012.
 
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#34
#34
cwbytruckers said:
After we lose or get spanked by Georgia he will blame the towel boy or equipment manager for handing out the wrong jockstraps.
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who says we're going to lose...geez grow a pair and cheer for the Vols...WIN OR LOSE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

GO VOLS...BEAT THE DAWGS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
 
#36
#36
CBJ did a remarkable job of getting UT to where it was the night Oklahoma rode into Neyland. Considering where we were when he started, he had definitely exceeded expectations.

Since that time, we've not progressed at all.
- Game management has not improved.
- Player development has not improved.
- Roster depth has not really improved due to the two above.
- Physical development and injury management/avoidance has gotten worse
- PR management has declined.
- Locker room management has declined.

So to me it's not that CBJ is a bad coach. He is good at certain things. UT benefited greatly the first three years of his tenure as a result of him being good at those things. However, he has not displayed any ability to take UT farther and I'm concerned about the ability to maintain what he's built due to the last two points above.

I appreciate CBJ and what's he's help rebuild. I think he's a nice guy. I don't think there's any shame in hitting a plateau and realizing that you have done what you can do and it might be time to move on to another program in similar condition to what he inherited at UT. In a less stressful environment with lower expectations, he might be able to sustain and grow his rebuilding efforts.
 
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#37
#37
A good friend of mine that I've known my whole life has made millions on real estate and really wise business decisions. He's not the smartest guy you'll meet. So when you ask him how he did it, he'll tell you I surrounded myself with people smarter then me, stayed out of the way, and managed where I needed to.

Butch cannot & will not adhere to that same idea.
He's not willing to let go of what he sees as "his way" which most agree doesn't work. Look up the definition of insanity.
 
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#38
#38
Great coaches get a win or two more out of their roster on a routine basis than the sum of its talent. The sum of the talent of this team with its experience is 9 wins. The fact that Jones is expected to win 6-8 tells you what you need to know.

A better than average coach assuming the same players, would have won 8+ additional games.

Jones has done a nice job rebuilding the roster and establishing discipline inside the program. But if he can't turn it around this year and prove he can coach then it is time to find someone who can take the program from where it is to championship contention.
 
#39
#39
Bad.
Butch and Kelly are a lot a like in the way they bend players to fit their system. However Kelly may be a better game day coach but still the similar styles.
I have know idea why butch would recruit players that doesn't fit the system rather than adjusting to his players skill set. We've seen how it has worked this far and we saw how Kelly did it in the NFL . I think both are bad coaches and wouldn't want either.
 
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#40
#40
can't necessarily disagree with many comments and observations in this thread.

One thing I don't understand, may have missed it along the way, is the "control freak / micromanager" label...which can actually become a huge plus...ala Saban. Believing in "your" system, while it can be a fault, doesn't necessarily = control freak.

Some of the issues I see would lead me to believe he doesn't exercise enough control - not checking out of plays, controlling detrimental locker room influences (if they're there).
 
#41
#41
Butch Jones is kind of like Holly Warlick....he can recruit and (until recently) motivate and get players excited, but he has coaching flaws you don't see in a championship level coach and he does not develop players to their potential. If Warlick developed her players according to the talent she recruits she would be in the Final Four every year. Jones would have at minimum a top-15 ranked team.
 
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#42
#42
JC61 said:
can't necessarily disagree with many comments and observations in this thread.

One thing I don't understand, may have missed it along the way, is the "control freak / micromanager" label...which can actually become a huge plus...ala Saban. Believing in "your" system, while it can be a fault, doesn't necessarily = control freak.

Some of the issues I see would lead me to believe he doesn't exercise enough control - not checking out of plays, controlling detrimental locker room influences (if they're there).
Click to expand...

Saban is a control freak; it's just that he's also smarter than everyone else and is open to change. Over the last few years he began recruiting faster (even if that means they are slightly smaller) LBs to defend spread offenses. He brought Kiffin in and either directed him to or allowed him to run a more open offense that was a blend of pro-style and read option concepts. Saban can run a really buttoned up offense reliant on the running game, or he can also run a more open style with a mobile QB that is allowed to make plays. If it were up to Saban, he'd win every game by relying on his defense and a 3 yards and a cloud of dust-style offense, but he knows that isn't how the game is played today. He's open to change, which is the key. He still is and always will be a control freak.

Butch's problem isn't necessarily that he's a control freak but that he appears resistant to change when it is needed. I and others have pointed out on here that during his time at Tennessee, Butch has (depending on how you look at it) recruited guys that don't fit his offensive scheme or has refused to change his offensive scheme to fit the guys he has recruited.

He's more open to change on the defensive side of the ball, probably because that isn't where his coaching background/experience is. But on offense he's had his buddy Bajakian, his buddy DeBord, and now Larry Scott who he promoted from within and has no play calling experience. Every OC he's had has been a guy who he can totally control and isn't going to suggest anything outside of Butch's box.
 
#44
#44
We are about to find out Saturday.

This is a huge stage for 121 to either win or lose. That is how they will be judged. Not just CBJ but the player's as well.

We are about to see what they are made of.

I think we clean Georgia's clock.

See y'all at Neyland.

Go Vols!
 
#45
#45
He has done good things and that should be taken into consideration, when it come to coaching on Saturday he is horrible. He also doesn't seem to make players better from season to season,same mistakes over and over. It is year 5 and we hear some of the same excuses as year 1 .
 
#47
#47
savannahfan said:
New staff needs time. Can't teach or change all the past short comings in one short spring and fall time frame. Limits on teaching and prep time (no 2 a days. ect) makes it more than one year to correct all the ills. As an example, I think the defense, as a whole, as shown progress since last year.
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There is always the good, the bad, and the inexplicable. You are about the only other person who has ever mentioned the fact that change in the college football world takes place in yearly increments. Things happen on the field in seconds. Changes in staff, player roster, and the playbook take far longer to work - or fail. If they really flop, mid season corrections aren't normally an option; it takes a year.

The inexplicable centers around expectations. There were wholesale staff and roster changes - starting with the OC. Sometimes they work - sometime they don't. Clawson and Sunseri; Cutcliffe v2 put things back on track when Sanders had been wandering in the desert. Those expectations are on the fans - and Butch.

Now the one I personally have trouble grasping is why anyone on the staff would think a pro-style QB was the answer for this offense. But then maybe he wasn't supposed to be the answer and Option B didn't develop as planned.

Where all the faults lie may be debatable, but the fact is that the pieces in this team and coaching staff don't fit together, and they don't work together. The biggest failing seems to be any rational effort to tailor the scheme to fit the parts - maybe an inability to think dynamically, select the right parts, to accept that it doesn't work, or micromanagement. But the writing was on the wall from the end of the last season - starting with how a pro style QB could possibly run an offense that needed a Dobbs.
 
#48
#48
Iam4utalways said:
We are about to find out Saturday.

This is a huge stage for 121 to either win or lose. That is how they will be judged. Not just CBJ but the player's as well.

We are about to see what they are made of.

I think we clean Georgia's clock.

See y'all at Neyland.

Go Vols!
Click to expand...

Do you mean we will out if he is a good coach or not on Saturday? How would one game overrule 4 years of poor coaching?
 
#49
#49
AM64 said:
Now the one I personally have trouble grasping is why anyone on the staff would think a pro-style QB was the answer for this offense. But then maybe he wasn't supposed to be the answer and Option B didn't develop as planned.
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Do you watch CFB besides UT? More than half of all teams run the west coast spread like UT. It can be successfully run with or without the QB read option. Jones might be self-deluded but he has said from the start that the key for his QB is the ability to manage the O and distribute to playmakers. He believes it will work with a passing QB.

Where all the faults lie may be debatable, but the fact is that the pieces in this team and coaching staff don't fit together, and they don't work together. The biggest failing seems to be any rational effort to tailor the scheme to fit the parts - maybe an inability to think dynamically, select the right parts, to accept that it doesn't work, or micromanagement. But the writing was on the wall from the end of the last season - starting with how a pro style QB could possibly run an offense that needed a Dobbs.
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If UT had a Jennings and a Malone right now then you could make that judgment. They don't. They've got MC as a "#1 receiver"... he isn't ready for that role. They have Palmer and Johnson trying to play as primary targets. They're not ready either.

Look at any team around the SEC having any success throwing the ball... and ask yourself honestly if any of UT's current starters would start for those teams. They're talented. They're probably great kids. They didn't ask to be thrown in too soon. But Jones failure to recruit and develop adequate depth at the WR position has left them and Dormady in a very difficult spot.

It isn't necessarily that the O cannot be customized to QD's skill set as much as there are missing pieces at WR. Vic Wharton is currently a top 10 WR in the Pac12... you remember... the guy who recruited his heart out for UT only to be unable to get along with Jones and staff. Many here said "good riddance" and predicted he'd never be any good.

This O could use Wharton right now... or Preston Williams.
 
#50
#50
volfannbama said:
Do you mean we will out if he is a good coach or not on Saturday? How would one game overrule 4 years of poor coaching?
Click to expand...

Not overrule but it would put him in a position to take this team to 9 regular season wins. I personally could live with that "progress" one more year. It might not remove a lot of doubts but it might move some negative things that seem pretty certain right now back to "doubts".
 
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