Kellie Harper discussion/debate thread [merged]

[madtownvol]

But….I thought we had the portal?! The people told us not to worry about high school recruiting because we were so good in the portal. Been hearing that for 3 years, recruiting can’t be an issue right?!

Glv98's comment about recruiting needs a little context. Rickea is a top 5 player in the country. It is hard to replace that piece. If Caitlin Clark went down, Iowa would not just pull a player off the bench to fill the gap and we saw that Uconn had a tough time replacing Paige B.

Spears starting the season in a shooting slump and Wells not adjusting as well as expected are also unexpected problems. It is not that the LVs don;t have the players but they have been underperforming (which ultimately reflects on the coaching staff).

But the improvement of Powell this season also shows the staff can do something right.

I am interested to see how this team looks after the 9 day re-set. They need to look a whole lot better or this specific conversation around Kellie's future will get a whole lot more intense.

 

[madtownvol]

Actually your choice does matter!! In fact it matters even more than Danny White’s. If there is no support and the money stops coming to the university then Mr. White’s decision will be made for him. For me, I will no longer support this team with my vote. I expect better! Kellie can’t do it, period!! The only magic which could remotely happen would be for the Lady Vols to do by themselves.

That is just not how the economics of WCBB works. It is a subsidized sport for the most part. If the LVs turn it around and start winning, more fans will show (owing to the bandwagon effect). I don't think any AD would pull the fire trigger on a coach coming off a sweet 16 season over a disappointing pre-conference, where the centerpiece of the team has been out with injuries. Everybody has been jumping the gun during this longish break because the results have been disappointing but we need to see what happens going forward.

 

[madtownvol]

Fun fact - this thread was started by Vandy fan Darth Vol/Elvee when the lady vols were to quote Earlvol - "10-1 with wins over 3 ranked teams without their All-American."

 

[Majors]

Those are such self serving takes, so obviously in search of the one millionth "TOLD YOU SO!"

No one forgot or ignored KJH record and everyone knew she was a ricky hire who was a compromise. Hard as it is to believe, that was not exclusive knowledge that ya'll uncovered. But she was/is who we have and so some of us were kinda hoping things would work out,, against all available current evidence.

I totally agree the thread of that hope is thinner than thin at this point. Thought last year was the tell since she had Jordy and Rickea. Thought this year was the absolute last hope bc she had Rickea back and important portal pieces. Now, after the super disappointing preseason, the thread of hope is thin as it gets.

But I'm still not ashamed to hope against hope things get better for the SEC season. Doesn't mean I'm ignorant of the facts, nor that I think KJH is the coach to get us to the promised land. I just want to watch a better team the rest of the season. Simple as that.

You wouldn’t have someone who was below standards manage your retirement accounts with that track record, getting 3% return when everyone else is getting triple. It’s not a “told you so” at this point. It’s just we know how it ends now with a 5 year sample size. A 6th year only sets the program back another year on the clock.

 

[Coach Jumper]

You wouldn’t have someone who was below standards manage your retirement accounts with that track record, getting 3% return when everyone else is getting triple. It’s not a “told you so” at this point. It’s just we know how it ends now with a 5 year sample size. A 6th year only sets the program back another year on the clock.

true at this juncture Kellie has two ways to go,,,follow Holly's route or blaze a new trail

 

[glv98]

Glv98's comment about recruiting needs a little context. Rickea is a top 5 player in the country. It is hard to replace that piece. If Caitlin Clark went down, Iowa would not just pull a player off the bench to fill the gap and we saw that Uconn had a tough time replacing Paige B.

Spears starting the season in a shooting slump and Wells not adjusting as well as expected are also unexpected problems. It is not that the LVs don;t have the players but they have been underperforming (which ultimately reflects on the coaching staff).

But the improvement of Powell this season also shows the staff can do something right.

I am interested to see how this team looks after the 9 day re-set. They need to look a whole lot better or this specific conversation around Kellie's future will get a whole lot more intense.

Nah, my opinion does take Rickea's injury into account. I knew it would be bad, but it shouldn't be this bad. Second half collapse against Notre Dame, total schooling by Rick Insel against MTSU, those didn't have to do w Rickea.

It's not just that they're losing these games, it's how they're losing. They reverted immediately to the typical KJH team gone bad model - high turnovers, poor shooting, confusion on offense (and defense now) and key players under performing. I just can't unsee the pattern anymore. It's consistently underwhelming.

I do think most of it is recruiting. The roster we were left with isn't equipped for the task. It's hard to unsee other schools zooming by us for elite level players.

Maybe KJH will pull it out of the fire after the reset and getting RJ back. I sure hope so. But any objective look at recent patterns does not bode well.

 

[madtownvol]

You wouldn’t have someone who was below standards manage your retirement accounts with that track record, getting 3% return when everyone else is getting triple. It’s not a “told you so” at this point. It’s just we know how it ends now with a 5 year sample size. A 6th year only sets the program back another year on the clock.

Not everyone made the Sweet 16 last year so your return on investment analogy does not hold up all that well.

The actual concern is that many people seem to view finishing 3rd in the SEC (behind defending champ SC and eventual champ LSU), being runner-up in the conference tournament and making it to the Sweet 16 unacceptable because the LVs won the SEC conference title and made it to the final four every year before Kellie took over.

Oh wait! It turns out the LVs last Final Four happened with Team Candace back in 2007-2008 and the year after that came the notorious loss to Ball State in the first round of the NCAA tournament.

In fact, let's look at the actual history of Kellie's last few seasons and, not the imagined history of nostalgic fans who still believe that the LVS set "the standard" for the women's game:

For the 2022-2023 season - The LVs won 25 games in back-to-back seasons for the first time since 2013-14 and 2014-15, its 13 SEC victories were its most since 2014-15 and it advanced to its first SEC Tournament title game since 2015. The Lady Vols went to back-to-back Sweet 16s for the first time since 2014-15 and 2015-16 and were one of just seven schools to do that in 2021-22 and 2022-23. (Hey that is not such bad investment portfolio after all).

And that record was accomplished with the team missing the centerpiece of its defensive schemes - Tamari Key.

All this talk about the "standard" refers back to 15 years ago. Prior to this season, Kellie had raised the performance bar from where it had been most recently. White did not give her an extension because the program was losing ground but because it seemed to be getting back in the national conversation.

No doubt, Kim Mulkey had more immediate impact on LSU but there aren't that many Kym Mulkey's walking around and who want to coach at Tennessee.

This season has been "a stumble out of the gates" and if the LVs keep staggering then "should a coaching change be made?" becomes a legit topic but Kellie has EARNED the benefit of the doubt to see if she can get the team performing at a higher level.

Things in her favor - Key looking better with each outing; RJ returning; the rise of Striplin and Powell; Sara finding her form and hopefully, the EKU game showing that Spears is getting comfortable in a LV uniform. Wells remains a ? but by the start of the conference (just around the corner), Kellie should have the pieces needed to be a strong team.

 

[Majors]

Not everyone made the Sweet 16 last year so your return on investment analogy does not hold up all that well.

The actual concern is that many people seem to view finishing 3rd in the SEC (behind defending champ SC and eventual champ LSU), being runner-up in the conference tournament and making it to the Sweet 16 unacceptable because the LVs won the SEC conference title and made it to the final four every year before Kellie took over.

Oh wait! It turns out the LVs last Final Four happened with Team Candace back in 2007-2008 and the year after that came the notorious loss to Ball State in the first round of the NCAA tournament.

In fact, let's look at the actual history of Kellie's last few seasons and, not the imagined history of nostalgic fans who still believe that the LVS set "the standard" for the women's game:

For the 2022-2023 season - The LVs won 25 games in back-to-back seasons for the first time since 2013-14 and 2014-15, its 13 SEC victories were its most since 2014-15 and it advanced to its first SEC Tournament title game since 2015. The Lady Vols went to back-to-back Sweet 16s for the first time since 2014-15 and 2015-16 and were one of just seven schools to do that in 2021-22 and 2022-23. (Hey that is not such bad investment portfolio after all).

And that record was accomplished with the team missing the centerpiece of its defensive schemes - Tamari Key.

All this talk about the "standard" refers back to 15 years ago. Prior to this season, Kellie had raised the performance bar from where it had been most recently. White did not give her an extension because the program was losing ground but because it seemed to be getting back in the national conversation.

No doubt, Kim Mulkey had more immediate impact on LSU but there aren't that many Kym Mulkey's walking around and who want to coach at Tennessee.

This season has been "a stumble out of the gates" and if the LVs keep staggering then "should a coaching change be made?" becomes a legit topic but Kellie has EARNED the benefit of the doubt to see if she can get the team performing at a higher level.

Things in her favor - Key looking better with each outing; RJ returning; the rise of Striplin and Powell; Sara finding her form and hopefully, the EKU game showing that Spears is getting comfortable in a LV uniform. Wells remains a ? but by the start of the conference (just around the corner), Kellie should have the pieces needed to be a strong team.

The “not everyone” stance doesn’t carry the Tennessee brand. So my investment stance still stands. You worry about your own program and not taking pride is lesser programs exiting at the same time or before.

The unacceptable in 3rd in the SEC stance is “unacceptable” when it becomes the new standard.

The oh wait moment you had, glazed over the fact Holly somehow managed to get to E8 a few times. Nobody is saying CKH has to be Summitt, she just can’t be worse than Holly.

 

[glv98]

Not everyone made the Sweet 16 last year so your return on investment analogy does not hold up all that well.

The actual concern is that many people seem to view finishing 3rd in the SEC (behind defending champ SC and eventual champ LSU), being runner-up in the conference tournament and making it to the Sweet 16 unacceptable because the LVs won the SEC conference title and made it to the final four every year before Kellie took over.

Oh wait! It turns out the LVs last Final Four happened with Team Candace back in 2007-2008 and the year after that came the notorious loss to Ball State in the first round of the NCAA tournament.

In fact, let's look at the actual history of Kellie's last few seasons and, not the imagined history of nostalgic fans who still believe that the LVS set "the standard" for the women's game:

For the 2022-2023 season - The LVs won 25 games in back-to-back seasons for the first time since 2013-14 and 2014-15, its 13 SEC victories were its most since 2014-15 and it advanced to its first SEC Tournament title game since 2015. The Lady Vols went to back-to-back Sweet 16s for the first time since 2014-15 and 2015-16 and were one of just seven schools to do that in 2021-22 and 2022-23. (Hey that is not such bad investment portfolio after all).

And that record was accomplished with the team missing the centerpiece of its defensive schemes - Tamari Key.

All this talk about the "standard" refers back to 15 years ago. Prior to this season, Kellie had raised the performance bar from where it had been most recently. White did not give her an extension because the program was losing ground but because it seemed to be getting back in the national conversation.

No doubt, Kim Mulkey had more immediate impact on LSU but there aren't that many Kym Mulkey's walking around and who want to coach at Tennessee.

This season has been "a stumble out of the gates" and if the LVs keep staggering then "should a coaching change be made?" becomes a legit topic but Kellie has EARNED the benefit of the doubt to see if she can get the team performing at a higher level.

Things in her favor - Key looking better with each outing; RJ returning; the rise of Striplin and Powell; Sara finding her form and hopefully, the EKU game showing that Spears is getting comfortable in a LV uniform. Wells remains a ? but by the start of the conference (just around the corner), Kellie should have the pieces needed to be a strong team.

For me it's not so much if they maintain 3rd in the SEC or if that's a new "standard". It's where do you see it going from here? We need to see the possibility of breaking into the top two. And fact is, we're just hanging onto 3rd by the skin of our teeth now while LSU and So Car zoom further ahead. And recruiting woes make those problems even worse in the immediate future.

 

[Darth_Vol]

Insanity might be ignoring the futility of the situation. I believe everyone wanted Kellie to be successful, but it’s not working out at all.

While there are plenty of criticisms about her coaching, I can't imagine anyone here doesn't like Kellie and didn't want her to succeed.

But the facts are what they are, and we certainly have a large enough sample size to make a rational, objective evaluation of her as a coach. Unfortunately, Kellie is such a revered figure to so many people they continue to blindly see her for what they wish should could be, not what she is...

 

[Majors]

For me it's not so much if they maintain 3rd in the SEC or if that's a new "standard". It's where do you see it going from here? We need to see the possibility of breaking into the top two. And fact is, we're just hanging onto 3rd by the skin of our teeth now while LSU and So Car zoom further ahead. And recruiting woes make those problems even worse in the immediate future.

Yahtzee! 3rd isn’t automatic this year or any year moving forward with Texas coming in.

 

[Volfan2012]

For me it's not so much if they maintain 3rd in the SEC or if that's a new "standard". It's where do you see it going from here? We need to see the possibility of breaking into the top two. And fact is, we're just hanging onto 3rd by the skin of our teeth now while LSU and So Car zoom further ahead. And recruiting woes make those problems even worse in the immediate future.

Same for me if 2025 recruiting is not top ten then were not going anywhere. That should be taken into total consideration plus making the tourney this season. Right now I like who we have gotten from the portal going forward and the two players we have recruited. Get me four more like them and then things will be changing for the better. Get me Blakes and get me the best two in the portal for next season one being a superior post player and I will be more excited about where were going.

 

[Darth_Vol]

Honestly, much as I hate it, if all we can manage is to scrape out a tourney invite and lose early, I think it's time to move on. Back to S16, tougher decision, but to me, yes, probably painfully time to look to the future. Too consistently underwhelming.

 

[Go aeiou]

And your point with respect to my post is?

You said on paper the Wade hiring looked like a "pretty good hire". As I recall when he was hired most thought he would have never been hired as HC if not for his son. I don't think he was ever hired as a head coach after UT?

 

[Coach Jumper]

I do think most of it is recruiting. The roster we were left with isn't equipped for the task. It's hard to unsee other schools zooming by us for elite level players....

After watching LSU set records for points, differential, (133-44 and holding McNeese to a non-scoring end of 1st through the entire 3rd and into the beginning of 4th.),,,against a foe similar to Wofford (McNeese St)...and going ten deep before I saw any difference in performance on the court....I have to say
AGREE!
They brought a player off the bench (Del Rosario) who led the team in scoring in the game and this was with Haley Van Lith on Injured Reserve.

 

[madtownvol]

The “not everyone” stance doesn’t carry the Tennessee brand. So my investment stance still stands. You worry about your own program and not taking pride is lesser programs exiting at the same time or before.

The unacceptable in 3rd in the SEC stance is “unacceptable” when it becomes the new standard.

The oh wait moment you had, glazed over the fact Holly somehow managed to get to E8 a few times. Nobody is saying CKH has to be Summitt, she just can’t be worse than Holly.

Did not glaze over that fact at all. I have frequently mentioned that Holly's first 3 years should be regarded as successes (she also had a few SEC titles) but many on this board were vitriolic that Holly was not "meeting the standard" and wanted her fired from the get-go.

The flipside is that matters started going downhill under Holly beginning in year 4 and the decline accelerated in her last season. Kellie stepped into a shambles compounded by covid.

But back to your usual rhetorical slipperiness, you originally stated "you wouldn’t have someone who was below standards manage your retirement accounts with that track record, getting 3% return when everyone else is getting triple".

So, your premise was that "everyone" was doing better than the LVs when only 7 teams in the country had back-to-back Sweet 16s (which also attest to great parity in WCBB). Your comment was factually untrue and so you make the pivot to some other point. Deflection is your game and its getting kind of tiresome.

But, what is a lesser program in today's college WCBB (Stanford is not in that group of 7, nor is Duke) Do you consider them lesser? On what criteria?

To my point, the Tennessee brand has not been the "Tennessee brand" (a perennial final four team) since Candace left.

Programs like Tennessee, which are running on a fading legacy, are in a precarious position. It looked like things were trending in the right direction under Kellie but she (and the program) can't afford a big regression this season.

So, a lot rides on what happens in the next few months. If she fails to meet last year's finishes, serious questions will have to be asked by the AD.

 

[madtownvol]

You said on paper the Wade hiring looked like a "pretty good hire". As I recall when he was hired most thought he would have never been hired as HC if not for his son. I don't think he was ever hired as a head coach after UT?

Who is this "most?" Any evidence for that claim other than your memory?

For the record, Wade Houston was not just Allan's dad. He had been the top assistant under the legendary Coach Denny Crum @ Louisville for 13 seasons (and had won 2 NCAA titles in that capacity). He had been a very successful high school coach before that.
As I recall, W.H. had a rep as being a talented offensive minded coach and the fan base was starving for that after years of Devoe ball. I recall that Allan was regarded as "an icing on the cake" perk. Plus Wade was also from Alcoa, TN so he had the local ties that Tennessee fans also tend to like.

His wiki page states that he went into business after his time at Tennessee, where he has been quite successful. Maybe he decided that he could have a better life outside of coaching.

 

[Majors]

Seems so simple when it’s said out loud

 

[arkyvol]

Did not glaze over that fact at all. I have frequently mentioned that Holly's first 3 years should be regarded as successes (she also had a few SEC titles) but many on this board were vitriolic that Holly was not "meeting the standard" and wanted her fired from the get-go.

The flipside is that matters started going downhill under Holly beginning in year 4 and the decline accelerated in her last season. Kellie stepped into a shambles compounded by covid.

But back to your usual rhetorical slipperiness, you originally stated "you wouldn’t have someone who was below standards manage your retirement accounts with that track record, getting 3% return when everyone else is getting triple".

So, your premise was that "everyone" was doing better than the LVs when only 7 teams in the country had back-to-back Sweet 16s (which also attest to great parity in WCBB). Your comment was factually untrue and so you make the pivot to some other point. Deflection is your game and its getting kind of tiresome.

But, what is a lesser program in today's college WCBB (Stanford is not in that group of 7, not is Duke) Do you consider them lesser? On what criteria?

To my point, the Tennessee brand has not been the "Tennessee brand" (a perrenial final four team) since Candace left.

Programs like Tennessee, which are running on a fading legacy, are in a precarious position. It looked like things were trending in the right direction under Kellie but she (and the program) can't afford a big regression this season.

So, a lot rides on what happens in the next few months. If she fails to meet last year's finishes, serious questions will have to be asked by the AD.

"a fading legacy". You couldn't have described the Lady Vols better.

 

[Volfan2012]

That is just not how the economics of WCBB works. It is a subsidized sport for the most part. If the LVs turn it around and start winning, more fans will show (owing to the bandwagon effect). I don't think any AD would pull the fire trigger on a coach coming off a sweet 16 season over a disappointing pre-conference, where the centerpiece of the team has been out with injuries. Everybody has been jumping the gun during this longish break because the results have been disappointing but we need to see what happens going forward.

If she can turn it around this year and has a top recruiting class in 2025 then yes we should move forward with her. If both those things don't happen then were just prolonging the inevitable. I'm not even saying make the sweet sixteen if she shores up the team next season with top portal players and maybe get Blakes to come here. She seemed to be leaning here at one time then USC West got involved so don't know what she is thinking and won't until the next recruiting period opens back up. I'd feel good with all the returnees and Cooper, Boyd, and Blakes joining the team along with an elite portal player. Then from there 2025 has to be a top ten class. She has a start with Brooks who I think is top ten player even though she is ranked number 16. If she can get three more like her then were on the right track back.

All that being said if for any reason she doesn't make the NCAA tourney for the first time in Tennessee history she will have to go and I think Danny White will have no choice the thunder will be to loud. Here is hoping we win the next ten so everyone can feel better cause firings are never fun unless absolutely necessary.

 

[Volfan2012]

After watching LSU set records for points, differential, (133-44 and holding McNeese to a non-scoring end of 1st through the entire 3rd and into the beginning of 4th.),,,against a foe similar to Wofford (McNeese St)...and going ten deep before I saw any difference in performance on the court....I have to say
AGREE!
They brought a player off the bench (Del Rosario) who led the team in scoring in the game and this was with Haley Van Lith on Injured Reserve.

What I am seeing is they are a better team without Van Lith. They have really hit another gear since she has been out of the lineup.

 

[madtownvol]

For me it's not so much if they maintain 3rd in the SEC or if that's a new "standard". It's where do you see it going from here? We need to see the possibility of breaking into the top two. And fact is, we're just hanging onto 3rd by the skin of our teeth now while LSU and So Car zoom further ahead. And recruiting woes make those problems even worse in the immediate future.

We all saw foresaw that possibility in the pre-season anticipation but that optimism presumed that Tamari would be close to 100% whereas she started the season closer to 10%; Rickea on the floor dominating games; and Spears and Wells seamlessly integrating into the team, plus Jillian emerging as a dominant post force.

In hindsight, that was a lot of "ifs" that needed to materialize. I think they still can come to fruition but it has just taken more time than most of us optimavols envisioned (and the Rickea injury was a particularly huge to blow to a team in flux).

 

[madtownvol]

If she can turn it around this year and has a top recruiting class in 2025 then yes we should move forward with her. If both those things don't happen then were just prolonging the inevitable. I'm not even saying make the sweet sixteen if she shores up the team next season with top portal players and maybe get Blakes to come here. She seemed to be leaning here at one time then USC West got involved so don't know what she is thinking and won't until the next recruiting period opens back up. I'd feel good with all the returnees and Cooper, Boyd, and Blakes joining the team along with an elite portal player. Then from there 2025 has to be a top ten class. She has a start with Brooks who I think is top ten player even though she is ranked number 16. If she can get three more like her then were on the right track back.

All that being said if for any reason she doesn't make the NCAA tourney for the first time in Tennessee history she will have to go and I think Danny White will have no choice the thunder will be to loud. Here is hoping we win the next ten so everyone can feel better cause firings are never fun unless absolutely necessary.

Do you know the status on Boyd's knee injury (in terms of its severity)?

 

[Volfan2012]

Do you know the status on Boyd's knee injury (in terms of its severity)?

Just out for the season. That is all that has been said and all that will probably be said. She is enrolling at Tennessee already or soon have to believe JMO that it is an injury that won't hinder her next season.

 

[Majors]

Did not glaze over that fact at all. I have frequently mentioned that Holly's first 3 years should be regarded as successes (she also had a few SEC titles) but many on this board were vitriolic that Holly was not "meeting the standard" and wanted her fired from the get-go.

The flipside is that matters started going downhill under Holly beginning in year 4 and the decline accelerated in her last season. Kellie stepped into a shambles compounded by covid.

But back to your usual rhetorical slipperiness, you originally stated "you wouldn’t have someone who was below standards manage your retirement accounts with that track record, getting 3% return when everyone else is getting triple".

So, your premise was that "everyone" was doing better than the LVs when only 7 teams in the country had back-to-back Sweet 16s (which also attest to great parity in WCBB). Your comment was factually untrue and so you make the pivot to some other point. Deflection is your game and its getting kind of tiresome.

But, what is a lesser program in today's college WCBB (Stanford is not in that group of 7, nor is Duke) Do you consider them lesser? On what criteria?

To my point, the Tennessee brand has not been the "Tennessee brand" (a perennial final four team) since Candace left.

Programs like Tennessee, which are running on a fading legacy, are in a precarious position. It looked like things were trending in the right direction under Kellie but she (and the program) can't afford a big regression this season.

So, a lot rides on what happens in the next few months. If she fails to meet last year's finishes, serious questions will have to be asked by the AD.

Stanford beat us head to head last season? ROI seems to say they did. And point me to where I deflected. Pretty sure my stance when you’re zigging and zagging about other programs is to stay in the Tennessee lane.