1.9% growth this quarter.

#26
#26
VolByBirth said:
We have multiple government bailouts (Fannie/Freddie and propping up FHA) for the housing market. We have the Fed opening up their lines to just about everyone. We have the FDIC burning through it's reserves at a ridiculous rate as they continue to take over more and more banks. Unemployment is rising, inflation is rising, spending is barely growing (.6%) -- which is odd because wages only rose by .1% (can you say debt??).

I don't care what you call it -- recession, slowdown, whatever. It's a problem because we'll be paying for it for years with all the money the gov't is hemmorhaging to pay for this.
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though i would disagree with fannie/freddie being a bailout quite yet and that the FDIC has bailed out a bunch of banks I do agree that anyone thinking this isn't a recession needs to look a lot closer. the effect of the housing market and the high gas price had not been fully felt IMO. and to bail out the housing market we probably will have to spend billions.
 
#27
#27
iceman9 said:
Yes better that we be in a recession, so the Prez is wrong. He took a beating on signing,or not signing the Kyoto treaty, but was right about that also,(even though it was never covered by the media)
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what?

and his not signing the Kyoto treaty is simply a matter of opinion. I personally think he was wrong.
 
#28
#28
emainvol said:
what?

and his not signing the Kyoto treaty is simply a matter of opinion. I personally think he was wrong.
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Clinton didn't sign it either.

and why should the US destroy it's economy when China and India are exempt from Kyoto?
 
#31
#31
MG1968 said:
now answer the second part of my comment.
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I think the fact that China and India are exempt is a moot point. I would like to see an example of a similar economy that the treaty has destroyed before I believe it will destroy ours.
 
#32
#32
what is so special about Kyoto anyway? Hasn't the US, for at least two decades, been improving efficiency to the point that submitting itself to Kyoto is moot?
 
#33
#33
emainvol said:
I think the fact that China and India are exempt is a moot point. I would like to see an example of a similar economy that the treaty has destroyed before I believe it will destroy ours.
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I think the idea of Kyoto actually hinders our movement forward in cutting carbon output. It's too robust and will always hurt one country more than another -- leading to problems.

I think the arguments that it will destroy our economy are a little unfounded as well. They said the same thing about the US auto industry when we tried to raise the minimum MPG rating.....too costly and we wouldn't be able to compete. Well, good strategic move -- all those SUV's they pumped out are now going for less than cost and may crush some of these companies. It's short-term laziness and profit supercedeing long-term social and financial success.
 
#34
#34
MG1968 said:
what is so special about Kyoto anyway? Hasn't the US, for at least two decades, been improving efficiency to the point that submitting itself to Kyoto is moot?
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It is hard to be an effective world leader when you won't submit yourselves to the same standards as others in the same official capacity. We are technically a signatory though, it just needs to be ratified.
 
#35
#35
VolByBirth said:
I think the idea of Kyoto actually hinders our movement forward in cutting carbon output. It's too robust and will always hurt one country more than another -- leading to problems.

I think the arguments that it will destroy our economy are a little unfounded as well. They said the same thing about the US auto industry when we tried to raise the minimum MPG rating.....too costly and we wouldn't be able to compete. Well, good strategic move -- all those SUV's they pumped out are now going for less than cost and may crush some of these companies. It's short-term laziness and profit supercedeing long-term social and financial success.
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If you think SUVs are the downfall of the US auto industry, you might consider a bit of homework.
 
#36
#36
droski said:
though i would disagree with fannie/freddie being a bailout quite yet and that the FDIC has bailed out a bunch of banks I do agree that anyone thinking this isn't a recession needs to look a lot closer. the effect of the housing market and the high gas price had not been fully felt IMO. and to bail out the housing market we probably will have to spend billions.
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Fair enough -- it certainly doesn't qualify as a bailout by definition, but it is government intervention "just in case". I just tend to think it is a foregone conclusion.

Housing + oil = big problem
 
#37
#37
BigPapaVol said:
If you think SUVs are the downfall of the US auto industry, you might consider a bit of homework.
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It wasn't meant to be a superlative statement -- just assisting in making a point. The auto industry has such a myriad of issues that it's a whole thread in and of itself. My point about cutting carbon emissions equaling economic failure being unfounded still stands.
 
#38
#38
emainvol said:
It is hard to be an effective world leader when you won't submit yourselves to the same standards as others in the same official capacity. We are technically a signatory though, it just needs to be ratified.
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I seriously doubt our failure to ratify Kyoto is a big drain on our ability to be a world leader.

It wasn't ratified because in a moment of rare agreement, the Senate was about as unanimously opposed to the treaty as possible.

When the presidents from both parties and virtually all Senators oppose an idea there might be a problem with the idea.
 
#39
#39
emainvol said:
It is hard to be an effective world leader when you won't submit yourselves to the same standards as others in the same official capacity. We are technically a signatory though, it just needs to be ratified.
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I don't recall smog and pollution ever being a problem at any US Olympic venue. Leadership sometimes involves taking a principled, if unpopular stance on certain issues.
 
#40
#40
volinbham said:
I seriously doubt our failure to ratify Kyoto is a big drain on our ability to be a world leader.

It wasn't ratified because in a moment of rare agreement, the Senate was about as unanimously opposed to the treaty as possible.

When the presidents from both parties and virtually all Senators oppose an idea there might be a problem with the idea.
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Maybe, but it seems to be working fine elsewhere.
 
#41
#41
MG1968 said:
I don't recall smog and pollution ever being a problem at any US Olympic venue. Leadership sometimes involves taking a principled, if unpopular stance on certain issues.
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Don't even get me started on the Olympics being in China, whoever came up with that idea should be whipped mercilessly.
 
#43
#43
unless I am mistaken, aren't the vast majority of the countries that signed it meeting the goals set forth?
 
#46
#46
emainvol said:
I think the fact that China and India are exempt is a moot point. I would like to see an example of a similar economy that the treaty has destroyed before I believe it will destroy ours.
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do you know that france increased it's polution by a larger % than the united states did since they signed the treaty?
 
#47
#47
IMO, one of the biggest, if not THE biggest issue with autos right now is the credit crash that is happening right now and will continue for awhile.
 
#48
#48
droski said:
do you know that france increased it's polution by a larger % than the united states did since they signed the treaty?
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Hasn't France decreased their pollution since signing? I know that in looking into it earlier, as of 2005 they had decreased their carbon pollution by something like 2% since 1990, which was 7 years before signing. I am still looking for solid information on greenhouse gas, the only thing I have found so far is in the Wikipedia article.
 
#49
#49
droski said:
do you know that france increased it's polution by a larger % than the united states did since they signed the treaty?
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what other country has an economy besides ours? i mean if a country doesn't have much of an economy to begin with, how much would it really hurt? one other thing, how does china and india get exempt?
 
#50
#50
joevol320 said:
what other country has an economy besides ours? i mean if a country doesn't have much of an economy to begin with, how much would it really hurt? one other thing, how does china and india get exempt?
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Economies not as strong as ours are likely to be hit even harder by making emissions cuts because they are likely not robust enough to handle it as well, at least I would think that is the case.

As for China and India, they are not completely exempt from the process, but for the first Kyoto period, which runs until 2012, I believe, they had no emissions targets. They are not the only two - many countries who are not as developed as the US and Western Europe signed and ratified Kyoto, but had no emissions targets to meet. I think that this year begins negotiations for the next phase of Kyoto, and if it actually survives (which I'm not sure it will), then it is possible that some of these developing countries might pick up some targets.
 
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