2 +2 + ?

[therealUT]

Continued...

Particular care should be taken that when the officers make contracts on behalf of the government or sign agreements, these contracts and agreements are not defective or harmful to the State, if they are negotiating any treaties and alliances they do not overlook or forsake the interests of the State or if they find the State in a weak and embarrassing position on account of unfavourable terms of treaties or due to intrigues, they should be able to find sensible ways out of them. See that they know and realize their proper place and rank, because he who does not realize his place and position will never understand those of others.

One more thing about these officers: You must remember not to select them for very important posts and not to trust them completely simply because you have found them honest, diligent, trustworthy and intelligent and have formed a good opinion about them because there are some people who, when it suits them, pretend honesty, diligence and fidelity and can put on the garb of piety and virtue and thus find their ways in the hearts of the rulers, though actually they are neither honest nor diligent nor wise nor sagacious. Therefore, you must always look to the record or reputation of the services of such men during previous regimes; more importance should be attached to their good reputation. This kind of selection and supervision will prove that you are faithful to Allah and that you wish your Imam well.


Thus you must appoint one officer as the Head of each important branch of your government. He should have knowledge and wisdom enough to cope successfully with all the intricate problems of his department and should be diligent enough to cope with extensive work.
Remember well that if there is any defect in your officers and you are tolerating it, then you and only you are responsible for all those evils.


I want to advise you about your businessmen and industrialists. Treat them well, and order your officers to follow the same policy.


There may be local businessmen carrying on their trade in certain places or those who send their merchandise from one place to another. There may even be those who import and export goods. Similarly there may be industrialists and manufacturers as well as industrial labour or men engaged in the handicrafts. They all deserve sympathy, protection and good treatment.
They all are the sources of wealth to the country. They provide goods for the consumers. Most of these traders carry and convey these goods from across deserts, seas and over open lands and mountains, their consignments are brought from distant lands, often from places which are not easy to approach and where usually people do not care or do not dare to go. These businessmen are usually peace-loving people, not given to mischievous disturbances and seditious fomentation. You must look after their interest and protect them whether they are trading in your cities or towns or whether they are travelling over the countries carrying goods from place to place.


One more thing about these traders and industrialists. While treating them most sympathetically you must keep an eye over there activities as well.


You know they are usually stingy misers, intensely self-centered and selfish, suffering from the obsession of grasping and accumulating wealth.

 

[therealUT]

Continued...

They often hoard their goods to get more profit out of them by creating scarcity and by indulging in black-marketing. Such a condition is extremely injurious to the public on one hand and disgraceful to the ruler on the other.


You must put a stop to all such practices because the Holy Prophet (s) has explicitly prohibited such practices. Remember that trade should go on between the buyers and sellers according to correct measures and weights and on such reasonable terms that neither the consumers nor the suppliers should have to face losses. But even with all the sympathetic treatments accorded to them and with all the facilities provided to them, if the traders and industrialists carry on hoarding and black-marketing, then you must punish them according to the intensity of their crime.


Then I want to caution you about the poor. Fear Allah about their conditions and you attitude towards them. They have no support, no resources and no opportunities. They are poor, they are destitute and many of them are cripples and unfit for work. Some of them come out begging and some (who maintain self-respect) do not beg, but their conditions speak of their distress, poverty, destitution and wants. For the sake of Allah, Maalik, protect them and their rights. He has laid the responsibility of this upon your shoulders. You must fix a share for them from Baytul Mal (the Government Treasury). Besides this reservation in cash, you must also reserve a share in kind of crops etc. from government granaries in cities where food-grains are stored as are cultivated on State-owned land because in these storage the share of those living far away from any particular city is equal to the share of those living nearby.


Let me remind you once again that you are made responsible for guarding the rights of the poor people and for looking after their welfare. Take care that the conceit of your position and vanity of wealth may not deceive you to lose sight of such a grave and important responsibility. Yours is such an important post that you cannot claim immunity from the responsibility of even minor errors of commission or omission with an excuse that you were engrossed in the major problems of the State which you have solved diligently.


Therefore, be very careful of the welfare of the poor people. Do not be arrogant and vain against them. Remember that you have to take particular care of those who cannot reach you, whose poverty-stricken and disease-ridden sight may be hateful to you, and whom society treats with disgust, detestation and contempt. You should be a source of comfort, love and respect to them. Appoint a respectable, honest and pious person - a person who fears Allah and who can treat them honourably, order him to find out everything about them and to submit a report to you.


Then treat these poor people in such a way that on the Day of Judgement you can plead your case successfully before Allah because of all classes of your subjects this class deserves more of your attention, sympathy and fair-deal.


Though everyone of these poor persons deserves your sympathy and you will have to do justice to His cause to achieve His favour, yet you should pay more attention to young orphans and old cripples. They neither have any support nor can they conveniently come out begging. They cannot reach you; therefore, you must reach them.
Remember that the fulfillment of this obligation and duty is considered as a tiresome burden by most of the rulers but to those who desire to achieve His Blessings and to enter into His Realm, even this work seems light and congenial. They bear it happily, dutifully and sincerely. They find pleasures in it and they believe in the promise made by Allah.

 

[therealUT]

Continued...

Out of your hours of work, fix a time for the complainants and for those who want to approach you with their grievances. During this time you should do no other work but hear them and pay attention to their complaints and grievances. For this purpose you must arrange public audience for them during this audience, for the sake of Allah, treat them with kindness, courtesy and respect. Do not let your army and police be in the audience hall at such times so that those who have grievances against your regime may speak to you freely, unreservedly and without fear.


All this is a necessary factor of your rule because I have often heard the Holy Prophet (s) saying, "That nation or regime, where that rights of the depressed, destitute and suppressed are not guarded and where the mighty and powerful persons are not forced to accede these rights, cannot achieve salvation". You must remember that in those audiences the most common men will gather. therefore, if you find them misbehaving, becoming unmannerly or if you feel that their talk is irrelevant, tolerate them; do not be rude and do not insult them, so that Allah may be kind and merciful to you and may reward you for obeying His commands explicitly. Treat them courteously, hear their grievances patiently and if you are forced to reject their demands then reject them in such a way that your rejection may please them as much as your grants.


Then there are certain duties which only you will have to perform and which none of your officers can carry out. Among them are replies to the letters of your commissioners and governors and are beyond the jurisdiction or preview of your secretaries. If you find that your officers are not attending as much to the complaints of the public as they should, then you should personally attend to them. You must finish a day's work on that day only because each day will bring its own special work for you. Reserve your best time for prayers to Allah, though every work of the State is the work of Allah, especially, if you are sincere and honest, and if your subjects are happy with your rule and are safe from your oppression.
Among those duties that you are to perform diligently must be your daily prayers. These should be offered sincerely and persistently. You must fix times for this during days and nights. You must tax your bodily strength for this duty though it may tire you. Your observance of prayers should be sincere and faultless and should neither be so long as to tire out those who follow you in these prayers nor so short as to be faulty and defective because amongst those who follow you during the prayers, there may be some sick persons, while others may have to attend to some important work.



When the Holy Prophet (s) sent me to Yemen I asked him how to lead the prayers. He advised me, "Offer prayers like a weak and old person and be kind to the faithful" (so that weak and old persons may follow your prayers easily and happily).


You must take care not to cut yourself off from the public. Do not place a curtain of false prestige between you and those over whom you rule. Such pretensions and show of pomp and pride are in reality manifestations of inferiority complex and vanity. The result of such an attitude is that you remain ignorant of the conditions of your subjects and of the actual cases of the events occurring in the State.


You will fail to realize comparative importance of events taking place and may attach great significance to minor events and may slip over important facts, similarly you may attach importance to mediocre or insignificant people and may ignore real men of consequence; and what is more, you may lose the power of distinction between good and bad and may take one for the other or hopelessly mix up the two. After all a ruler is as much a human being as any other man and he may remain ignorant of facts of which his officers want to keep him in the dark (and on which the public may throw light). Thus truth may get mixed up with falsehood and may not be distinguished because there are no birthmarks on the forehead of truth that it may be easily differentiated from falsehood, one has to search for facts and sift realities from fictions, only then can one reach the truth. Think for yourself, there are only two categories of rulers and you may belong to one of them.


You may either be a pious, sincere and diligent ruler, doing the right thing at the right moment and following the principles of justice and equity and you may be protecting rights of others and doing your best to fulfil your obligations, in that case why hide from the public, why draw a curtain around yourself! Or you may be a miser refusing to be generous to anyone, in that case people will gradually come to know of this trait of your character and will gradually give up asking for favours from you but do not overlook the fact that most of their demands will have nothing to do with your private purse, they will be about the rights of people, obligations of the State, complaints against the State, oppressions, and solicitations of justice, then why try to avoid hearing these requests!

 

[therealUT]

Continued...

You should never overlook the fact that around the rulers there usually are certain privileged persons (relatives and friends). They may often try to take advantage of their status and may resort to selfishness, intrigues, fraud, corruption and oppression. If you find such people around you then do away with them (however closely connected they may be with you), immediately bring an end to the scandal and clear your surroundings of all such moral and spiritual filth.


You must never give lands in permanent lease with all proprietary and ownership rights to your friends and relatives. You must never allow them to take possession of the source of water-supply or lands which have special utility for the communes. If they get possession of such holdings they will oppress others to derive undue benefits and thus gather all the fruits for themselves leaving for you a bad reputation in this world and punishment in the next.


Be fair in dispensing justice. Punish those who deserve punishment even though he may be your near relation or a close friend and even if such an action may give you pangs of sorrow and grief. Bear such a sorrow patiently and hope for Divine reward. I assure you this will bear good fruits.


If on account of your strict measures people get suspicious of your behaving like a tyrant and oppressor, then come out openly before them and explain to them the reasons of your actions and let them see the facts for themselves and realize the truth. This will give training to your mind, will be an act of kindness to the subjects and the confidence thus reposed in them will make them support justice and truth while you will achieve the end you have in view of obtaining their support in the cause of truth.


If your enemy invites you to a Peace Treaty that will be agreeable to Allah, then never refuse to accept such an offer because peace will bring rest and comfort to your armies, will relieve you of anxieties and worries, and will bring prosperity and affluence to your people. But even after such treaties be very careful of the enemies and do not place too much confidence in their promises because they often resort to Peace Treaty to deceive and delude you and take advantage of your negligence, carelessness and trust. At the same time be very careful, never break your promise with your enemy, never forsake the protection or support that you have offered to him, never go back upon your words, and never violate the terms of the treaty. You must even risk your life to fulfil the promises given and the terms settled because of all the obligations laid by Almighty Allah upon man (in respect to other men) there is none so important as to keep one's promises when made.


Though people may differ in their religions and ideologies and may have divergent views upon various problems of State, yet they all agree that promises when made must be fulfilled. Even the heathens take care to keep the promises made among themselves because they have seen and realised the evil effects of breaking promises. Therefore, take very particular care of promises made, never go back upon the words given, never go into the offensive without previously challenging and giving an ultimatum. Deception and fraud even against your enemy is a deception against Allah and none but a wretched sinner would dare do that.


Allah has given promises and treaties the high rank of being messengers of peace and prosperity and through His Kindness and Mercy has made them a common desire (of keeping promises) in the minds of all men and a common requirement for all human beings. He has made them such a shelter and asylum that everybody desires to be under their protection.

 

[therealUT]

Continued...

Therefore, there should be no mental reservation, no fraud, no deception and no underlying meanings in between the lines when you make a promise or conclude a treaty. Do not use such words and phrases in your promises and treaties as have possibilities of being translated in more than one way or as may have various interpretations and many explanations, let there be no ambiguity in them, and let them be clear, precise and to the point. And when once a treaty has been finally concluded, do not try to take advantage of any ambiguous word or phrase in it. If you find yourself in a critical situation on account of the treaty made in the cause of Allah, then try to face the situation and bear the consequences bravely and do not try to back out of the terms that account, because to face such perplexing situations as may gain His Rewards and Blessings is better than to break your promises on that account and earn that about which you feel nervous and for which you will have to answer Allah and which may bring down His Wrath upon you in this world and damnation in the next.


Beware of the sin of shedding blood without religious justification and sanction because there is nothing quicker to bring down the Wrath of Allah, to take away His Blessings, to make you more deserving of His Wrath and to reduce the span of your life than to shed innocent blood. On the Day of Judgement Allah will first attend to sins of bloodshed carried out by man against man.



Therefore, never try to strengthen your power, position and prestige by shedding innocent blood. Such murders instead of making your position strong will not only considerably weaken it but may also transfer your power totally, taking it away from you and entrusting it to somebody else.


If you have intentionally murdered a man then no excuse shall be acceptable to Allah or to me because punishment of such a crime is necessary.


And if you kill a man by mistake without any intention or motive of killing or while delivering legal penalties, your whip, sword or hand unintentionally and inadvertently deals a fatal blow because even a forcefully delivered slap or box on the ear may cause death, then do not, on account of your prestige and position, refuse paying the compensation to the heirs.


Beware and do not develop the trait of self-admiration and self-appreciation. Do not get conceited of the good points that you find in your good character or good deeds that you have done. Do not let flattery and cajolery make you vain and egoist. Remember that of all the cunning ruses of the devil to undo good deeds of the pious people and to affect their piety, flattery and false praises are the ones on which it relies the most.


Do not boast of the favours and kindnesses that you have done to your subjects and do not try to make them realise this, do not think too much of the good that you have done to them, and do not go back upon the promises made, all these three habits are very ugly features of one's character. The practice of boasting over the favours done undoes the good done, the habit of exaggerating and thinking very highly of our good actions will make us lose the guidance of Allah, and the habit of breaking one's promises is disliked both by Allah and by man. The Merciful Allah says, "It is most hateful in the sight of Allah, to say something and not to practice it." [ Qur'an, 61:3 ].


Do not be hasty and do not precipitate your decisions and actions, when the time comes for an action to be done, or a decision to be taken, then do not be lazy and do not waste time and do not show weakness. When you do not find a true way to do the thing on hand, then do not persist on the wrong way and when find a correct solution, then do not be lethargic in adopting it.


In short do everything at a proper time and in a proper way and keep everything in its proper place.
Do not reserve for yourself anything which is a common property of all and in which others have equal rights. Do not close your eyes from glaring malpractice of the officers, miscarriage of justice and misuse of rights because you will be held responsible for the wrong thus done to others. In the near future your wrong practices and maladministration will be exposed and you will be held responsible and punished for the wrong done to the helpless and oppressed people. Take care and keep control over you temper, your anger and your desire to be arrogant and vain. Take care of your hands when you are out to deliver punishment and of the sharpness of your tongue when you are saying harsh things. The best way to achieve this is not to be hasty in making remarks and to delay in delivering punishment so that you may keep your temper under control and are not overexcited.
And you cannot achieve this unless you constantly remember that you have to return to Allah and unless His fear overcomes every other sentiment.


You must always try to remember the good and useful things done in the past, activities of a just and benign regime, good deeds done by it, good laws promulgated, instructions of the Holy Prophet (s), commands of Allah given in His Holy Book and things that you have seen me doing or have heard me saying. Follow the good actions and advice found therein. Similarly, follow carefully the pieces of advice contained in these orders. Through them I have tried to teach you all that can be taught about a good regime. I have done my duty towards you so that you may not go astray and your mind may not crave for base desires. If it does then you will have no excuse before Allah.


I beseech Allah that by His Limitless Mercy and by His Supreme Might He may grant our prayers, that He may lead both of us to the Divine Guidance of achieving His Pleasure, of successfully pleading our cases before Him, justifying our deeds before man, of gaining good repute, of leaving good results of our benign and just rule with ever expanding prosperity and ever increasing welfare of the State and of meeting our ends as martyrs and pious persons, as our return is towards Him only.


May the peace of Allah be upon the Holy Prophet (s) and His chosen descendants.

 

[therealUT]

Phew...well, that was my best GSVol impression.

 

[allvol123]

Phew...well, that was my best GSVol impression.

Damn...I was just about to throw out a good one liner.

 

[utvolpj]

the title of this thread confuses me but maybe I'm just missing something deeper

 

[BigPapaVol]

the title of this thread confuses me but maybe I'm just missing something deeper

Not deeper, just longer.
Posted via VolNation Mobile

 

[gsvol]

Phew...well, that was my best GSVol impression.

Your impression of me confirms my earlier statement that you are completely out of your gourd.

I could reduce your diatribe to one word, but I'm not just ready to take a vacation.

You who are on the road
Must have a code that you can live by
And so become yourself
Because the past is just a good bye.

Teach your children well,
Their father's hell did slowly go by,
And feed them on your dreams
The one they picked, the one you'll know by.

Don't you ever ask them why, if they told you, you would cry,
So just look at them and sigh and know they love you.

And you, of tender years,
Can't know the fears that your elders grew by,
And so please help them with your youth,
They seek the truth before they can die.

Can you hear and do you care and
Cant you see we must be free to
Teach your children what you believe in.
Make a world that we can live in.

Teach your parents well,
Their children's hell will slowly go by,
And feed them on your dreams
The one they picked, the one you'll know by.

Don't you ever ask them why, if they told you, you would cry,
So just look at them and sigh and know they love you.

Of all the posters on this board, I find you, 'realut' to be the most fos of any.

 

[gsvol]

the title of this thread confuses me but maybe I'm just missing something deeper

Some people say the answer is four, some say another number.

 

[therealUT]

Some people say the answer is four, some say another number.

2 + 2 + ... there is no answer, because that is not an equation.

 

[therealUT]

I could reduce your diatribe to one word, but I'm not just ready to take a vacation.

Please do.

 

[volfanbill]

gs do you have any ability whatsoever to think for yourself or do you just find other articles and copy and paste over and over until you realize most will be too bored to read?

there is a difference in Radical Islam and actual Islam. Learn to deal with that. They are not the same. You can take all the quotes you want from radical muslim leaders, but it is not helping you prove any point. Of course, I question whether you want to prove a point or not.

One of Muhammed's last teachings was to hurt no one so that no one may hurt you. Just because certain groups (that may seem large in number) seem to perverse the religion, does not make the religion itself any more perverse than Christianity.

 

[rockytophigh]

I'm not going to read all that crap but I will chime in on Islam. To sit here and say what they are doing worldwide is ok because Christians acted much the same in the 1500s is stupid. It actually may be worse than stupid. All this killing in the name of Allah has got to stop. It's everyday we are seeing it....not just an event here or there. The problem lies in that radical Islam is a HUGE movement...not just 8 dudes in a cabin in Montana with some shotguns.

 

[GAVol]

To sit here and say what they are doing worldwide is ok because Christians acted much the same in the 1500s is stupid.

Nobody has really said that.

 

[therealUT]

I'm not going to read all that crap but I will chime in on Islam. To sit here and say what they are doing worldwide is ok because Christians acted much the same in the 1500s is stupid.

Next time, read first, then chime in. Your following statement would then be more informed, if not more intelligent.

 

[rockytophigh]

Next time, read first, then chime in. Your following statement would then be more informed, if not more intelligent.

Well I know you were being funny posting like gs so I wasn't going to read you two going at it being long winded on purpose. But thanks for calling me unitelligent. That was really cool of you.

Compared to what? To make such a statement you must compare Islam to like institutions.

Is Islam in dogma, doctrine, and history perverse compared to Christianity? No. Judaism? No.

Does Islam, in 2009, resemble theo-political organizations of the Middle Ages? Yes.

Here is the statement I was talking about. I don't think you have to compare Islam to anything to call it perverse. Why would you? If seeing literally dozens, sometimes hundreds of people killed daily in the name of Islam doesn't make it perverse, I don't know what does.

It's neither the dogma, doctrine, nor history that is blowing people up or shooting them. It's LARGE numbers of crazy Islamist extremist.

 

[KB5252]

Well I know you were being funny posting like gs so I wasn't going to read you two going at it being long winded on purpose. But thanks for calling me unitelligent. That was really cool of you.

Compared to what? To make such a statement you must compare Islam to like institutions.

Is Islam in dogma, doctrine, and history perverse compared to Christianity? No. Judaism? No.

Does Islam, in 2009, resemble theo-political organizations of the Middle Ages? Yes.

Here is the statement I was talking about. I don't think you have to compare Islam to anything to call it perverse. Why would you? If seeing literally dozens, sometimes hundreds of people killed daily in the name of Islam doesn't make it perverse, I don't know what does.

It's neither the dogma, doctrine, nor history that is blowing people up or shooting them. It's LARGE numbers of crazy Islamist extremist.

Which may or may not be Islamic principles depending on which Muslim you ask. This goes back to the point he was trying to make.

 

[rockytophigh]

Which may or may not be Islamic principles depending on which Muslim you ask. This goes back to the point he was trying to make.

I understand his point.......but my point is people are getting killed in droves, what do we do....play nice and say ok, there's 2 billion of you who are ok but these 500,000 are dead set on killing the rest of mankind? The number, IMO, is simply too large to do nothing but wait and die. Like I said before, we aren't dealing with 8 guys in a cabin in Montana....this is worldwide, in massive numbers, and if we play a waiting game, we're gonna lose big time....& this isn't a football game we're playing. It's about our lives and the lives of one's we love.

 

[therealUT]

It's neither the dogma, doctrine, nor history that is blowing people up or shooting them. It's LARGE numbers of crazy Islamist extremist.

The fact that you qualified "Islamist" with "extremist" belies that in the back of your mind you are able to seperate between Islam and those who are exploiting the religion to achieve their socio-political goals through violence.

 

[rockytophigh]

The fact that you qualified "Islamist" with "extremist" belies that in the back of your mind you are able to seperate between Islam and those who are exploiting the religion to achieve their socio-political goals through violence.

No sir, that is exactly what I am not saying. At this point, with the size of Islamist extremism...I don't think you can tell one from another. Unlike odd sects of random religious crazies here in the US.....the Islamist extreme are in a huge portion of their religious populations who hide in their churches among their people. I think the peaceful loving people of Islam know for the most part who these extremist are as well. Enough is enough....it's time for the good people of Islam to stand up and expose these murderers. Where are their voices?

 

[KB5252]

No sir, that is exactly what I am not saying. At this point, with the size of Islamist extremism...I don't think you can tell one from another. Unlike odd sects of random religious crazies here in the US.....the Islamist extreme are in a huge portion of their religious populations who hide in their churches among their people. I think the peaceful loving people of Islam know for the most part who these extremist are as well. Enough is enough....it's time for the good people of Islam to stand up and expose these murderers. Where are their voices?

Sadly I believe they are quiet because they know they could very well fall victim to their brothers who are extremists.

 

[gsvol]

Please do.

You'd like that wouldn't you?

It would be in a category of words that RTH mentions as being 'worse than stupid.'

This quote jumps out: Allah says, "It is most hateful in the sight of Allah, to say something and not to practice it." [ Qur'an, 61:3].

BTW, what is your source for that missive???

2 + 2 + ... there is no answer, because that is not an equation.

My original title line read; 2 + 2 = ?, of that I am sure, it had to have been edited by a mod, I can't edit it back, that option isn't available for users.

You shot yourself in the foot right off the bat quoting Ali, the son Abu Taalib, wasn't he in charge during the time of the battle of Yarmouk when his army took no prisoners and slaughtered 70,000, even those who tried to surrender??? Correct me if I'm wrong and another thing all those nice sounding words you quote from some muslim text were more than likely never said.

Today Osama bin-Laden draws great inspiration form that battle and that period of muslim history.

The fact Ali would appoint Abdul Malik al-Ashtar, the ass of the Jazirah to govern Egypt speaks volumes.

Oh, and by the way, you quote some letter from 14 hundred years ago, can you quote one islamic authority figure today who is saying that??

No what they are all saying is; "address our grievances."

gs do you have any ability whatsoever to think for yourself or do you just find other articles and copy and paste over and over until you realize most will be too bored to read?

Yes as a matter of fact I can, can you??

I have no cure for your boredom, not my problem.

there is a difference in Radical Islam and actual Islam. Learn to deal with that. They are not the same. You can take all the quotes you want from radical muslim leaders, but it is not helping you prove any point. Of course, I question whether you want to prove a point or not.

And that difference is???

"Fight against those to whom the Scriptures were given as believe in neither God nor the last day, who do not forbid what God and his messenger have forbidden, and who do not embrace the true faith, until they pay tribute out of hand and are utterly subdued"
(Surah 9:29).

One of Muhammed's last teachings was to hurt no one so that no one may hurt you. Just because certain groups (that may seem large in number) seem to perverse the religion, does not make the religion itself any more perverse than Christianity.

That's news to me, and probably news to his followers over the last 14 centuries.

Could you refer me to what verse in which that is written???

Or is that something someone has told you and gullible you have believed??

You end your statement with a summary that has to be pointed out to be pure ignorance.

The Quran contains at least 109 verses that call Muslims to war with nonbelievers. Some are quite graphic, with commands to chop off heads and fingers, and kill the infidels wherever they may be hiding. Muslims who do not join the fight are called 'hypocrites' and warned that Allah will send them to Hell if they do not join the slaughter.

These verses are mostly open-ended, meaning that they are not embedded within historical context (as are nearly all of the Old Testament verses of violence). They are part of the eternal, unchanging word of Allah, and just as relevant or subjective as anything else in the Qur'an.

Unfortunately, there are very few verses of tolerance and peace to abrogate or even balance out the many that call for nonbelievers to be fought and subdued until they either accept humiliation, convert to Islam, or are killed. This proclivity toward violence and Muhammad's own martial tradition have resulted in a trail of blood and bodies across world history.

Read the Koran for yourself;


"Show me just what Muhammad brought that was new and there you will find things only evil and inhuman, such as his command to spread by the sword the
faith he preached."
“Dialogue Held With A Certain Persian, the Worthy Mouterizes, in Anakara of Galatia”.
Manuel II Paleologus, 1391 AD

Pope Benedict fairly recently quoted Palaiologos in a
discussion with academics in a lecture on "faith and
reason", with references ranging from ancient Jewish
and Greek thinking to Protestant theology and modern
secularity, focused mainly on Christianity and what Pope
Benedict called the tendency to "exclude the question
of God" from reason.

Basically he was addressing the issues of those whose
religion is modern secular humanism.

Islam is featured in a part of the lecture: the Pope
quoted strong criticism of Islam, which he described as
being of a "startling brusqueness, a brusqueness which
leaves us astounded".

In three paragraphs at the beginning of the speech,
Pope Benedict quoted from and discussed an argument
made by the Byzantine Emperor Manuel II Palaiologos
in a 1391 dialogue with an "educated Persian" (who
remained unnamed in the Pope's lecture), as well as
observations on this argument made by Theodore
Khoury, the scholar whose edition of Manuel II's
dialogues the Pontiff was referencing.

Pope Benedict used Manuel II's argument in order to draw a distinction between the Christian view, as expressed by Manuel II, that "not acting reasonably is contrary to God's nature", and an Islamic view, as
explained by Khoury, that God transcends concepts such as rationality, and his will, as Ibn Hazm stated, is not constrained by any principle, including rationality.

In part of his explication of this distinction, Pope Benedict referred to a specific aspect of Islam that Manuel II considered irrational, namely the practice of forced conversion.

Specifically, the Pope (making clear that they were the Emperor's words, not his own) quoted Manuel II Palaiologos as saying:

"Show me just what Muhammad brought that was new and there you will find things only bad and inhuman, such as his command to spread by the sword the faith he preached."

The Pontiff was comparing the Quranic passage that "There is no compulsion in religion" with later ones that, according to Manuel II, allowed "spreading the faith through violence"; the latter teaching being offered by Pope Benedict as an unreasonable one, on the belief that religious conversion should take place through the use of reason.

His larger point here was that, generally speaking, in Christianity, God is understood to act in accordance with reason, while in Islam, God's absolute transcendence means that "God is not bound even by his own word", and can act in ways contrary to reason, including self-contradiction.

At the end of his lecture, the Pope said, "It is to the great logos, to this breadth of reason, that we invite our partners in the dialogue of cultures."
---------------------------------

Response from the world of islam.


A notorious Muslim extremist told a demonstration in London yesterday that the Pope should face execution.

Anjem Choudary said those who insulted Islam would be "subject to capital punishment".

A nun was shot dead in Somalia by Islamic gunmen and churches came under attack in Palestine.

"The Muslims take their religion very seriously and non-Muslims must appreciate that and that must also
understand that there may be serious consequences if you insult Islam and the prophet."

"Whoever insults the message of Mohammed is going to be subject to capital punishment."

He added: "I am here have a peaceful demonstration. But there may be people in Italy or other parts of the world who would carry that out."

"I think that warning needs to be understood by all people who want to insult Islam and want to insult the prophet of Islam."

Iraqi jihadists issued a video of a scimitar slicing a cross in two, intercut with images of Benedict and the burning Twin Towers.

In Turkey, state minister Mehmet Aydin said the Pope seemed to be saying he was sorry for the outrage but not necessarily for his remarks.

The threat of violence against Catholics and Christians was emphasized by the murder of an Italian nun in Somalia.

Sister Leonella, 66, was shot as she walked from the children's hospital where she worked to her house in
Mogadishu, a city recently taken over by an Islamic government.

There were fierce denunciations of the pontiff from Iran. The English-language Tehran Times called his lecture in Bavaria last week "code words for a new crusade".

The powerful cleric Ahmad Khatami told theological students in the holy city of Qom: The "Pope should fall on his knees in front of a senior Muslim cleric and try to understand Islam."
--------------------------------------

What of American 1st amendment rights??

 

[gsvol]

Nobody has really said that.

I beg to differ.

Maybe not in so many words but that is exactly what is being said, ie; Cristianity = Islam, they are both religions and all religions except secular humanism are bad.

And/or the Christian crusades and dark age European struggles for power in which Christianity played a part, make Cristianity every bit as evil as islam.

Next time, read first, then chime in. Your following statement would then be more informed, if not more intelligent.

Who appointed you Lord and Master?

Your arrogance is underwhelming.

BTW, I found his statement to be both more informed and intelligent that any I've ever read of yours.