24 team cfb playoff system: let the champion be decided on the football field

[KnoxRealtorVOL]

It’s okay to hate Ohio State, yet still acknowledge the Big 10 has improved significantly while the SEC has regressed.

It’s not 2006 anymore.

Base this argument on something please.

They were the only conference without a team in the playoff as recent as this past year.

 

[SDV]

I don't see how this would work, but I would like to see the playoff expanded to 8 teams if they could make it work.

This. I think 24 is too many

 

[bamawriter]

Base this argument on something please.

They were the only conference without a team in the playoff as recent as this past year.

The Pac 12 didn't have anyone, either.

 

[Lawrence Wright]

Base this argument on something please.

They were the only conference without a team in the playoff as recent as this past year.

And the previous three years they’ve had at least one team make the CFP.

The SEC’s had Bama and UGA make the CFP, with AU having an outside shot to get in.

The Big 10’s had Ohio State and Michigan State, with Penn State getting passed over in spite of beating Ohio State...not to mention Wisconsin and Iowa having legit shots to get in.

The SEC losing James Franklin, Urban Meyer and Les Miles (and regaining Orgeron) resulted directly in a weaker SEC and stronger Big 10.

Add Scott Frost at Nebraska...advantage Big 10.

Coaching in the Big 10 is better than the SEC. Recently the Big 10 has been deeper at the top than the SEC.

You can argue Ohio State gets the same pass Alabama gets with a loss and no conference title, but I don’t think their path is any easier.

 

[05_never_again]

Base this argument on something please.

They were the only conference without a team in the playoff as recent as this past year.

Their frontline teams aren't any better than the SEC's frontline teams, but they are a deeper conference than the SEC right now.

During the SEC's golden area from about 2006-14, what truly marked the SEC's dominance wasn't necessarily the 7 championships in a row but how deep the conference was. Those 7 titles in a row were won by 4 different schools. The SECCG served as a de facto national title play-in game in 2008, 2009, and 2012.

The West was always better than the East throughout the period, but a number of teams were national powers for many years (Alabama, LSU, Florida), Auburn won a title and played for another, Georgia would have at least played for a title in 2012 if they won the SECCG.

Even non-traditional powers had success: Arkansas made the Sugar Bowl in 2010 and was a top 5 team in 2011. Mizzou was a top 5 team in 2013. South Carolina emerged and had three 11-win seasons in a row from 2011-13, finishing in the top 10 each year. Ole Miss played in NY6 bowl games in 2014 and 2015. Also-ran Vanderbilt had top 25 finishes in 2012 and 2013. Miss St played in a NY6 bowl in 2014.

The meme that SEC haters repeated throughout the golden era ("They aren't the best conference, they have the best team") has become true since about 2015. For multiple reasons, the conference has really become hollowed out.

You know who was arguably the worst SEC team during the conference's golden era? Tennessee. :cray:

 

[Lawrence Wright]

That’s two arguments “based on something”.

The floor is yours chatt-town.

 

[05_never_again]

Chatt-town...if you want to still make the SEC look really good in your rebuttal, at least you can say that the quality of play in the Big 10 has improved over the last several years partially because 2 ex-SEC coaches entered the conference. One completed a re-tooling (Urban), one completed a total re-build (Franklin).

 

[Lawrence Wright]

Chatt-town...if you want to still make the SEC look really good in your rebuttal, at least you can say that the quality of play in the Big 10 has improved over the last several years partially because 2 ex-SEC coaches entered the conference. One completed a re-tooling (Urban), one completed a total re-build (Franklin).

Thanks for validating my argument that the SEC has regressed while the Big 10 has improved.

 

[05_never_again]

Thanks for validating my argument that the SEC has regressed while the Big 10 has improved.

lol, yeah, OK, you did make that exact point previously.

But seriously, the Big 10 is better now purely because of coaching. Nothing more, nothing less. Perhaps that tide is turning though. Butch, Bielema, and Sumlin were just purged and Sumlin was replaced by a dude who has already won a national title. Mullen stayed in-conference and is now at a school where he can actually do something.

And it isn't just Urban and Franklin that have improved the Big 10. I know we love to make fun of Harbaugh, and he arguably has underachieved, but he obviously was such an upgrade over Brady Hoke and Rich Rod. Dantonio is probably the most underrated coach in all of CFB. Wisconsin has had crazy turnover at their HC position but whoever they've had has been good because Alvarez is running the show. Pat Fitzgerald consistently makes lemonade out of lemons at Northwestern (2 10-win season last 3 years). Ferentz is a boring coach in a boring state but he teams are rarely "bad." As you mentioned Frost entered the conference and he hasn't coached a game yet but appears to have a ton of potential.

That Big 10 East is the best division in CFB right now, and it isn't even close.

 

[VolsSportsFan]

small colleges do it

If you mean lower divisions, sure. And with all due respect to them, nobody cares that much. The specifically expanded it from 16 to 24 to try and get more attention.

Also, FCS isn't even without its own small controversies about it, as the Ivy League, MEAC, and SWAC don't send their champions to the playoffs.

 

[bamawriter]

well, one team & fan base has to travel don't they?

I have to assume that you've rarely watched the FCS playoffs. The visiting teams don't travel terribly well. You'll see a section of family members, but that's about it.

And even then, the home team is only having to worry about filling a 20k to 30k seat stadium. This year's semis were held at James Madison (24,877 seats) and NDSU (19,000 seats).

 

[RDU VOL#14]

I want to see 11 season games, 9 in conference games mandated for each p5 conference, 1 p5 OOC opponent and then you can have your layup vs directional state school for the blind.

8 team playoff, p5 champs, 3 wildcards.

1st round games are on campus sites, semis are the same as now, just like the title game.

The TV intrigue would be through the roof. The possible elite 8 matchups would be amazing on campuses.

 

[LouderVol]

I want to see 11 season games, 9 in conference games mandated for each p5 conference, 1 p5 OOC opponent and then you can have your layup vs directional state school for the blind.

8 team playoff, p5 champs, 3 wildcards.

1st round games are on campus sites, semis are the same as now, just like the title game.

The TV intrigue would be through the roof. The possible elite 4 matchups would be amazing on campuses.

fyp

unless you are saying "elite 8" as the name of the round, in which case I apologize.

 

[GVF]

small colleges do it

Not with a 24 team field. Also, if you are going to run it straight through week after week with no weekends off and no bye's for any teams, 24 team does not work. It is a multiple of 3 when it comes to doubling the field. Has to be a field comprised of doubling even numbers starting at 2. Otherwise you have to factor in a bye week for two lucky teams and that is an unfair advantage in that playoff system. You can have a playoff field of 2, 4, 8, 16, 32, 64.

FCS does 16 teams.

 

[bamawriter]

Not with a 24 team field. Also, if you are going to run it straight through week after week with no weekends off and no bye's for any teams, 24 team does not work. It is a multiple of 3 when it comes to doubling the field. Has to be a field comprised of doubling even numbers starting at 2. Otherwise you have to factor in a bye week for two lucky teams and that is an unfair advantage in that playoff system. You can have a playoff field of 2, 4, 8, 16, 32, 64.

FCS does 16 teams.

Actually FCS does 24. There are five rounds, and the top 8 seeds get a bye to the second round.

 

[bamawriter]

Now that I've had a chance to give this some real thought, here's a list of issues with this proposal working from least to most problematic:

Here's the 2017 bracket, for reference:

1. The Bowls

The author proposes that 22 of the 23 games be played within the current bowl structure, but that the bowl game must be in a stadium that holds at least 65,000. Because he couldn't come up with enough bowls that qualify, he proposes moving the Liberty Bowl to Indianapolis, and the Sun Bowl to Los Angeles. This ignores that the bowls aren't just in arbitrary locations. The cities themselves have sports councils that manage the games. The Sun Bowl isn't the Sun Bowl if it isn't in El Paso. The author also moves the Quick Lane Bowl from Detroit to Minneapolis, but doesn't offer a reason, as Ford Field meets his capacity requirement. He also has the Motor City Bowl on his list, so I'm guessing that he doesn't realize that it no longer exists, and the Quick Lane is the only bowl played in Detroit.

But, this issue isn't the end of the world. If you need extra games, then let's just create new games in LA, Indy, and Minneapolis for the sake of meeting the criteria. And let's also accept the fact that he has the Birmingham Bowl on the list. Legion Field may be a dilapidated crap hole, but it does hold more than 65k.

2. The selection criteria -

The rankings, i.e. at large teams, will be ordered by the following criteria: head to head (if applicable), overall strength of schedule, average margin of victory, and win-loss record.

I can only assume that he doesn't actually mean that teams are ranked in that order. There's no way that you can start with head-to-head. His actual seeding doesn't reflect any legit preference for head-to-head results.

3. The travel -

I mentioned it in my first post, but it's worth noting again. There is no way that a fanbase can be expected to make it to four or five different games, all in neutral sites, in a little over five weeks. Let's just take a few examples:

Miami: a fanbase that already doesn't travel well starts in Orlando, and then has to travel out to San Diego two days before Christmas. Now, USC fans will probably fill up the Holiday Bowl, but what if Miami wins? Now you've got a potential Bama vs Miami matchup in Glendale, AZ. Bama fans probably didn't spend much money making it to Birmingham, but now you've left both fanbases with a choice: do I spend gobs of money flying out to AZ, or stay home and hope that my team wins and gets to go to New Orleans?

Michigan St: The Spartans would have three straight games in the state of Texas. If they win all those, their reward would be a trip to Pasadena. That's over 10,000 miles there-and-back. If they win the Rose Bowl, they get a relatively short trip of 622 miles to Atlanta. And God forbid that Troy pull a couple of upsets. Then you've got a Trojan team, with no real fans to speak of, who have just been to Santa Clara and Minneapolis, taking on Michigan St (on their third trip to TX) at Jerry World. Good luck selling out that game.

Washington: As the #3 seed, the Huskies would get to pick their first round bowl location. The geographic fit? Santa Clara, CA. 709 miles away from Seattle. If they win, they get to go 1393 miles to Minnesota. If they manage to make the title game, they'll have logged almost 14,000 air miles. UW fans had a poor showing at the 2016 Peach Bowl, and that didn't come after trips to four other far-flung locations.

There is no way to play 23 games at neutral sites. Most of those games would be empty.

4. ESPN -

this system ups the number of games ESPN can run hundreds of ads throughout from three to twenty three. That’s 20 more and nearly eight times more playoff games than they can shove ads down your throats with the current system.

On it's face, that logic makes sense. More important games means more people watching, which means more ad revenue. Except, as you'll see in his bracket, he has each round played on the same day. For the first two rounds, ESPN and ABC carry 3 games throughout the day with ESPN2 airing 2, with kickoffs staggered about an hour apart. You aren't increasing ad revenue by playing more games, only to then play the games at the same time. Look at ESPN's current schedule. They do as much as they can to have only one bowl game on the air at a time. The only day that's not true is New Year's Day, and even then they have the Rose and Sugar on the air with zero crossover.

The other issue is that he has the semis scheduled for the 2nd Saturday of January. Sorry, but you can't have college playoff games on at the same time as the NFL playoffs.

The proposal is predicated on ESPN throwing 8 times the money for 8 times the content. But why would ESPN do that? Aside from the fact that a first round game between UCF and FAU is not nearly as valuable as a final four game, ESPN would then be tasked with trying to sell ads on multiple platforms at the exact same time. There is no way that you could convince ESPN, or any network, to pay for this.

 

[05_never_again]

There is no way that a fanbase can be expected to make it to four or five different games, all in neutral sites, in a little over five weeks.

The key to the whole thing seems to be TV, much more than the other reasons. If ESPN or some network wanted to pick up the tab for this, it'd probably be stupid, but it is possible it could exist.

The travel concerns are probably alleviated by the fact that the bowls in question would still be televised under a huge TV contract and be sponsored, therefore they still make money with lots of empty seats.

There are a ton of bowl games with bad attendance, yet they were adding more every year until this moratorium (which had nothing to do with the bad attendance) because ESPN picks the game up and it has a title sponsor.

 

[bamawriter]

The key to the whole thing seems to be TV, much more than the other reasons. If ESPN or some network wanted to pick up the tab for this, it'd probably be stupid, but it is possible it could exist.

The travel concerns are probably alleviated by the fact that the bowls in question would still be televised under a huge TV contract and be sponsored, therefore they still make money with lots of empty seats.

There are a ton of bowl games with bad attendance, yet they were adding more every year until this moratorium (which had nothing to do with the bad attendance) because ESPN picks the game up and it has a title sponsor.

But again, there is no way that ESPN is picking it up if they are expected to air 8 games in a day. That cannot be sold.

 

[VolsSportsFan]

Not with a 24 team field. Also, if you are going to run it straight through week after week with no weekends off and no bye's for any teams, 24 team does not work. It is a multiple of 3 when it comes to doubling the field. Has to be a field comprised of doubling even numbers starting at 2. Otherwise you have to factor in a bye week for two lucky teams and that is an unfair advantage in that playoff system. You can have a playoff field of 2, 4, 8, 16, 32, 64.

FCS does 16 teams.

FCS has been 24 teams since 2013, and went from 16 to 20 in 2010.

 

[gunner]

lol, yeah, OK, you did make that exact point previously.

But seriously, the Big 10 is better now purely because of coaching. Nothing more, nothing less. Perhaps that tide is turning though. Butch, Bielema, and Sumlin were just purged and Sumlin was replaced by a dude who has already won a national title. Mullen stayed in-conference and is now at a school where he can actually do something.

And it isn't just Urban and Franklin that have improved the Big 10. I know we love to make fun of Harbaugh, and he arguably has underachieved, but he obviously was such an upgrade over Brady Hoke and Rich Rod. Dantonio is probably the most underrated coach in all of CFB. Wisconsin has had crazy turnover at their HC position but whoever they've had has been good because Alvarez is running the show. Pat Fitzgerald consistently makes lemonade out of lemons at Northwestern (2 10-win season last 3 years). Ferentz is a boring coach in a boring state but he teams are rarely "bad." As you mentioned Frost entered the conference and he hasn't coached a game yet but appears to have a ton of potential.

That Big 10 East is the best division in CFB right now, and it isn't even close.

What has the Big 10 East won lately? It seems to me that the SEC and ACC have won the last few titles.

 

[05_never_again]

What has the Big 10 East won lately? It seems to me that the SEC and ACC have won the last few titles.

I'm speaking about conference/division depth. Ohio St, Michigan St, Penn St, and Michigan is a pretty deep division.

 

[KnoxRealtorVOL]

That’s two arguments “based on something”.

The floor is yours chatt-town.

Fair enough.

To address a couple of things:

1) You want to argue coaching has been better the past few years in the B1G than SEC? You’ll get no argument from me there. I would in fact argue that the SEC has been the worst-coached P5 conference in football for a while now.

2) Herein lies the rub: the Big 10 has some great programs at the top, only a fool would dispute that. That being said, their “depth” is a horrendous argument, and leads to their top teams being fluffed. In 2017 the SEC squared off with the Big 10 twice in bowl games, one was South Carolina who beat Michigan, the other was perennial bottom-dweller Kentucky, who won 7 games but took 10-win Northwestern to a 1 point game. Why would a Northwestern team who is capable of winning 10 games barely squeak by Kentucky? Sort of how another 10-win Northwestern team got throttled by a Butch Jones coached 8 win Tennessee, this only happens when a team just plain-out doesn’t play anyone with a pulse.

But let’s shift gears, enough about Northwestern. I’ll pick another school... let’s talk Michigan. In 2018 they will play an in-conference schedule that looks like this (in order):

1. Nebraska, who won 4 games
2. Northwestern, who squeaked by KY
3. Maryland, who won 4 games
4. Wisconsin, who won an impressive 13 games (again, impressive until you go back and look at their schedule)
5. Mich State, who was basically a parallel to Northwestern, and actually lost to them
6. Rutgers... again, 4 wins
7. Indiana who actually managed to pull out 5 wins
8. And OSU/Penn State, which are great teams.


Now... anyone want to go look at Tennessee’s schedule? Because off the top of my head (in no order):

-The national champs
-The team they played in the championship
-The team that beat both of those teams
-The team that beat Michigan in the post-season
-The team that lost to 10-win Northwestern by one point

There’s five.

Sorry folks... the Big 10 is weak. Especially when compared to the SEC.

 

[gunner]

I'm speaking about conference/division depth. Ohio St, Michigan St, Penn St, and Michigan is a pretty deep division.

That’s a nice opinion but please show me the hardware.

The last 20 years of college football has been dominated by the SEC.

 

[Lawrence Wright]

Fair enough.

To address a couple of things:

1) You want to argue coaching has been better the past few years in the B1G than SEC? You’ll get no argument from me there. I would in fact argue that the SEC has been the worst-coached P5 conference in football for a while now.

2) Herein lies the rub: the Big 10 has some great programs at the top, only a fool would dispute that. That being said, their “depth” is a horrendous argument, and leads to their top teams being fluffed. In 2017 the SEC squared off with the Big 10 twice in bowl games, one was South Carolina who beat Michigan, the other was perennial bottom-dweller Kentucky, who won 7 games but took 10-win Northwestern to a 1 point game. Why would a Northwestern team who is capable of winning 10 games barely squeak by Kentucky? Sort of how another 10-win Northwestern team got throttled by a Butch Jones coached 8 win Tennessee, this only happens when a team just plain-out doesn’t play anyone with a pulse.

But let’s shift gears, enough about Northwestern. I’ll pick another school... let’s talk Michigan. In 2018 they will play an in-conference schedule that looks like this (in order):

1. Nebraska, who won 4 games
2. Northwestern, who squeaked by KY
3. Maryland, who won 4 games
4. Wisconsin, who won an impressive 13 games (again, impressive until you go back and look at their schedule)
5. Mich State, who was basically a parallel to Northwestern, and actually lost to them
6. Rutgers... again, 4 wins
7. Indiana who actually managed to pull out 5 wins
8. And OSU/Penn State, which are great teams.


Now... anyone want to go look at Tennessee’s schedule? Because off the top of my head (in no order):

-The national champs
-The team they played in the championship
-The team that beat both of those teams
-The team that beat Michigan in the post-season
-The team that lost to 10-win Northwestern by one point

There’s five.

Sorry folks... the Big 10 is weak. Especially when compared to the SEC.

You validated my points in your first two paragraphs.

Thanks for responding.

 

[05_never_again]

That’s a nice opinion but please show me the hardware.

The last 20 years of college football has been dominated by the SEC.

It absolutely has. I'm speaking about the last 2 years of college football, not the last 20. The SEC has not been the best conference in college football over the last couple of years.