5 Facts That Everyone Should Know

#3
#3
Pretty scary but not shocking. I wouldn't put much past any gov't.
 
#4
#4
Electric Orange said:
I found an interesting article. If ya got time, read it and tell me what ya'll think. Scary stuff IMO.

If Everyone Knew | 5 facts that everyone should know.
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A few thoughts on the list:

1. No problem with for-profit prison system. If the Justice system overall is getting a kick-back then I have a problem. Otherwise I see no problem with it.

2. We used to have 3 networks and they were the vast source of broadcast news. Now with the Internet I would bet that media fragmentation is at least as strong as it was historically if not more so.

3. In the 1950s...hell, in the 1900s we did... and in the 1850s we did... I think the teaser for this factoid really stretches the impact of what the FBI does.

4. See #3

5. See #3 and #4 and add to that the fact it was not implemented.


I'm no fan of government involvement in our lives but I really don't think this list is at all representative of our government's history. Further, it is quite sensationalized.
 
#6
#6
tvolsfan said:
I really find it hard to imagine the government pulling off 911 style attacks then successfully covering it up for more than about 45 seconds.
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I think it'd be harder to pull that kind of thing off nowadays, but who knows.
 
#7
#7
volinbham said:
A few thoughts on the list:

1. No problem with for-profit prison system. If the Justice system overall is getting a kick-back then I have a problem. Otherwise I see no problem with it.

2. We used to have 3 networks and they were the vast source of broadcast news. Now with the Internet I would bet that media fragmentation is at least as strong as it was historically if not more so.

3. In the 1950s...hell, in the 1900s we did... and in the 1850s we did... I think the teaser for this factoid really stretches the impact of what the FBI does.

4. See #3

5. See #3 and #4 and add to that the fact it was not implemented.


I'm no fan of government involvement in our lives but I really don't think this list is at all representative of our government's history. Further, it is quite sensationalized.
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1. In certain cases, the prosecutors get to keep the assets (property, etc) from the people that they bust. Why wouldn't prosecutors want to bust more people if it lined their pockets? (Schlosser, Eric. Reefer Madness. 1st ed. 1. New York, NY: Mariner Books, 2004. 78-83. Print.)

2. Yeah but the majority of voters (or if not the majority, a lot of) just watch TV to form their opinions.

3. The FBI traditionally apprehended or killed a number of notorious criminals who carried out kidnappings, robberies, and murders throughout the nation, including John Dillinger, "Baby Face" Nelson, Kate "Ma" Barker, Alvin "Creepy" Karpis, and George "Machine Gun" Kelly. That is different from infiltrating/ inciting violence against peaceful movements like the Civil Rights/ Anti War/ etc. which were composed of law abiding American citizens. The FBI for a long time did whatever the hell J. Edgar Hoover thought was right.

4. Americans torturing/ experimenting on other Americans is not right. That's some Nazi $hit.

5. A plan for Americans to attack Americans to bolster political support for war is manipulative and IMO wrong. If war is really justified, the public shouldn't have to be misled to gain their support. They're the ones dying in the trenches, so they should know the truth about why they are fighting. As Black sabbath would say, "Politicians hide themselves away
They only started the war
Why should they go out to fight?
They leave that role to the poor
Yeah!"

I agree this list is definitely not representative of our government's history, (I am in fact proud and thankful for the majority of our government's actions historically) but it definitely makes you think.
 
#8
#8
volinbham said:
A few thoughts on the list:

1. No problem with for-profit prison system. If the Justice system overall is getting a kick-back then I have a problem. Otherwise I see no problem with it.

2. We used to have 3 networks and they were the vast source of broadcast news. Now with the Internet I would bet that media fragmentation is at least as strong as it was historically if not more so.

3. In the 1950s...hell, in the 1900s we did... and in the 1850s we did... I think the teaser for this factoid really stretches the impact of what the FBI does.

4. See #3

5. See #3 and #4 and add to that the fact it was not implemented.


I'm no fan of government involvement in our lives but I really don't think this list is at all representative of our government's history. Further, it is quite sensationalized.
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1. I have to disagree strongly. Justice is not a market; it is a preposterous notion. Again, like health care, a penal system is something to be used as little as possible. That is anathema to the profit-motive. Moreover, privatization tomfoolery of the penal system goes a long way to explain this:

US_incarceration_timeline-clean.gif


And that graph is an abomination to the Old Values of the American Republic. It should rightly be regarded as one of our deepest shames - and that is before we get into exactly who is incarcerated.
 
#9
#9
once upon a time, a man would be hanged for stealing another man's horse, nowadays, a similar crime might get you a $500 fine and time served.
 
#10
#10
MG1968 said:
once upon a time, a man would be hanged for stealing another man's horse, nowadays, a similar crime might get you a $500 fine and time served.
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Unless you're poor and / or minority.

Actually our propensity for capital punishment is another shame.
 
#11
#11
utgibbs said:
Unless you're poor and / or minority.

Actually our propensity for capital punishment is another shame.
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got news for you, even in your version of statist utopia, where the government meets all the needs of the people, there would be crime at all levels. The worst of which would be perpetrated by whoever you've chosen to lead, but there would be plenty of criminal behavior among the collective. Nature abhors a vacuum, gibbs, humans need conflict, external and internal. It will never be bred out nor will it ever be coerced out. Jails will always be necessary.

You, especially, should realize this since I've told you repeatedly that I would never acquiesce to your vision. How do you keep people like me away from your utopia?
 
#12
#12
MG1968 said:
got news for you, even in your version of statist utopia, where the government meets all the needs of the people, there would be crime at all levels. The worst of which would be perpetrated by whoever you've chosen to lead, but there would be plenty of criminal behavior among the collective. Nature abhors a vacuum, gibbs, humans need conflict, external and internal. It will never be bred out nor will it ever be coerced out. Jails will always be necessary.

You, especially, should realize this since I've told you repeatedly that I would never acquiesce to your vision. How do you keep people like me away from your utopia?
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Whereas it is ridiculous to outrightly reject a Hobbesian view of the world (or Maistre), your diatribe does nothing to explain why America is so much more "criminal" since Reagan. However, privatization of the penal system coupled with a Keynesian kickback to fight a "Drug War" (sic) where poor-man's cocaine is given a different set of draconian laws than the high quality China White our 43rd president dealt at Yale, goes a long way to explain it.

Again, a penal system should be used as little as possible. I didn't say it should disappear. But when a ridiculous percentage of these new prisoners are in for non-violent offenses, and when you look at the racial demographics ot the population, it is a sickening shame and an abomination to the Old Values of the American Republic.
 
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#13
#13
Not sure how I feel about the penal system being private. On the surface I don't think I agree with it being a for profit system.

Regardless, people being locked away for decades for nonviolent drug offenses, especially with drugs like marijuana is completely stupid.
 
#14
#14
MG1968 said:
once upon a time, a man would be hanged for stealing another man's horse, nowadays, a similar crime might get you a $500 fine and time served.
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Yeah and now a pound of grass can get you ten years.:crazy:
 
#15
#15
CSVol said:
Yeah and now a pound of grass can get you ten years.:crazy:
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Exactly.

A medicinal herb having a relationship with human cultures for several thousand years.

Heaven forbid we actually encourage its production again to make useful items like medicines, paper, or nutritious foods. Or use it to naturally fix nitrogen into the soil as the perfect rotation crop.

One word explains it all: Capital.
 
#16
#16
utgibbs said:
Exactly.

A medicinal herb having a relationship with human cultures for several thousand years.

Heaven forbid we actually encourage its production again to make useful items like medicines, paper, or nutritious foods. Or use it to naturally fix nitrogen into the soil as the perfect rotation crop.

One word explains it all: Capital.
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Unless you are blaming the criminalization of marijuana on the tobacco lobby, then your last sentence is complete nonsense; if that is where your blame lies, then your last sentence is mostly nonsense.
 
#17
#17
therealUT said:
Unless you are blaming the criminalization of marijuana on the tobacco lobby, then your last sentence is complete nonsense; if that is where your blame lies, then your last sentence is mostly nonsense.
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Hearst and his paper industry, actually, is one of the primary culprits for the criminalization. There was a healthy dash of zealous persecution of minorities too, namely Mexican immigrants. But I didn't know the tobacco lobby was involved at all, I would be interested in hearing more.

My last sentence, actually, explains a hell of a lot of what happens in the real world outside the back door. Not just marijuana criminalization. And it is patently obvious, and only a practiced contrarian would attempt to deny it.

But I'd love to hear your reasons for the uptick in American criminality since 1980.
 
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#20
#20
utgibbs said:
Hearst and his paper industry, actually, is one of the primary culprits for the criminalization. There was a healthy dash of zealous persecution of minorities too, namely Mexican immigrants. But I didn't know the tobacco lobby was involved at all, I would be interested in hearing more.

My last sentence, actually, explains a hell of a lot of what happens in the real world outside the back door. Not just marijuana criminalization.
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If you want to make this about "capital", I would attempt to research and argue that the big money that funded the "moral" campaigns against recreational drugs, came from pharmaceutical companies, big tobacco, and producers of alcohol.

That could be a compelling and sensible argument of capital's role in this issue as these industries fought for market share.

As for the Hearst empire, what intrinsic benefit did they receive from the prohibition of drugs? I would imagine that any benefit they received came in the form of ad revenue. Follow that money, if you can.
 
#22
#22
therealUT said:
If you want to make this about "capital", I would attempt to research and argue that the big money that funded the "moral" campaigns against recreational drugs, came from pharmaceutical companies, big tobacco, and producers of alcohol.

That could be a compelling and sensible argument of capital's role in this issue as these industries fought for market share.

As for the Hearst empire, what intrinsic benefit did they receive from the prohibition of drugs? I would imagine that any benefit they received came in the form of ad revenue. Follow that money, if you can.
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It wasn't about drugs, it was about a superior competitor to their timber product. Hemp paper is fantastic.

Regardless, I think you have just supplied yet even more support for that final sentence of mine. Appears your OP is comprehensively incorrect.
 
#25
#25
rjd970 said:
Not sure how I feel about the penal system being private. On the surface I don't think I agree with it being a for profit system.

Regardless, people being locked away for decades for nonviolent drug offenses, especially with drugs like marijuana is completely stupid.
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I think what we put people away for is nuts. That said, having a for-profit prison is not a problem in my mind.
 
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