#756

#76
#76
OrangeEmpire said:
My favorite part was Bond's shrugging off his son with a mere pat on the back.

Nice................
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What was he supposed to do? Take his hand and go jogging across the field like a certain football coach and his daughter?
 
#77
#77
hatvol96 said:
What was he supposed to do? Take his hand and go jogging across the field like a certain football coach and his daughter?
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I think Barry would skip.

Or maybe they just share quality time behind the scenes. Like when his son put the needle in daddy's butt.
 
#78
#78
I love how people criticize Barry over steroids. I don't believe he ever did them, but if he did, would he have 0 homeruns? No. Steroids or not, he's still one of the best players to have ever played the game. It seems like all of the other people that did them will get a pass, but Barry. (Not that im saying he did them) People just can't congratulate him for breaking the record.
 
#81
#81
TennesseeFan07 said:
I love how people criticize Barry over steroids. I don't believe he ever did them, but if he did, would he have 0 homeruns? No. Steroids or not, he's still one of the best players to have ever played the game. It seems like all of the other people that did them will get a pass, but Barry. (Not that im saying he did them) People just can't congratulate him for breaking the record.
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Who gets a pass? Palmero is considered a joke and likely won't be in the hall of fame. McGwire basically retired because of it and wasn't voted into the hall this past season.

Barry is the ONE that just passed the most coveted of all the sports records, that's why he is so critized. He also holds another coveted record with the most homeruns in a season.

Name another player in the history of baseball that got better at hitting and their power numbers went up at 37?

He admitted to taking steroids in the leaked testimony.

And yes he is one of the best but this era will be tainted and because of the records he holds he will be the poster child.
 
#82
#82
Good points. Sosa's public perception plummeted as well. None of those guys are "getting a pass"; they just became irrelevant afterwards. Bonds has gone on to claim the biggest record in sports. No wonder he's more of a lightning rod.

And Bonds made it even worse on himself by spending the preceding decade and a half being as prickly as possible to the media, his teammates, etc. That's certainly his prerogative, and I can understand why he might not want to suck up to the pencil-necked idiots at his locker, but since those people are the filter through which the populace perceives him, he can't exactly be suprised that he didn't end up beloved by the fans.

Bonds is what he is. He was one of the 10 or 15 best players of all time and then, through the judicious of supplements and body armor, made himself into something "superhuman" (to use that windbag Costas's apropos word). It would be curious to see how the twilight of his career played out if it had not happened to coincide with the steroid era.
 
#83
#83
I ran Bill James's Favorite Toy for Bonds's career through the 1999 season, when he was 34. That's the year before the dramatic shift in his numbers occured; at that point, Bonds looked as though he was going into a fairly typical decline, although of course he was so great that even his declining numbers were prettty good.

Anyway. After the 1999 season Bonds had hit 445 home runs. Based on his age and then-established home run levels, the system projects him to finish with 589 home runs, and gives him a 0 percent chance to hit 755. I think that's a little conservative; I think he could have stuck around to get 600. That sounds about right.

Obviously, still a first-ballot HOFer and one of the best ever. It's kind of a shame that 40 years from now "Bonds" and "steriods" will basically be synonymous to baseball fans, and people will forget what a great player he was before he started juicing.
 
#84
#84
JZVOL said:
Who gets a pass? Palmero is considered a joke and likely won't be in the hall of fame. McGwire basically retired because of it and wasn't voted into the hall this past season.

Barry is the ONE that just passed the most coveted of all the sports records, that's why he is so critized. He also holds another coveted record with the most homeruns in a season.

Name another player in the history of baseball that got better at hitting and their power numbers went up at 37?

He admitted to taking steroids in the leaked testimony.

And yes he is one of the best but this era will be tainted and because of the records he holds he will be the poster child.
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Carlton Fisk dropped 37 bombs (a career high) when he was 37.

The 13 seasons before he turned 37 he averaged 17.5 bombs a year. After he turned 37 he played 8 seasons (I didn't calculate his first two seasons or his very last season because of the lack of games played) and he averaged 18.125.

Not a wild change of numbers but it can shown in numbers that he had better power numbers after he turned 37 years old.

I'm sure there are other examples but none as drastic as Bonds.
 
#85
#85
Business said:
Carlton Fisk dropped 37 bombs (a career high) when he was 37.

The 13 seasons before he turned 37 he averaged 17.5 bombs a year. After he turned 37 he played 8 seasons (I didn't calculate his first two seasons or his very last season because of the lack of games played) and he averaged 18.125.

Not a wild change of numbers but it can shown in numbers that he had better power numbers after he turned 37 years old.

I'm sure there are other examples but none as drastic as Bonds.
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That's impressive especially him being a catcher.
 
#86
#86
JZVOL said:
That's impressive especially him being a catcher.
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I thought it was due to him playing DH more but I looked again and it says that he played 153 games and 130 were from the cather position. So I guess he was just feeling it that year.

Lets also remember that if Bonds actually played in 2005 this record would have been broken last year.
 
#87
#87
Barry Bonds record is legit because he hasn't been proven guilty of anything.

Major League Baseball was too apathetic in the 90's and now they're going to have to live with guys like McGwire, Sosa, Bonds, etc. owning the records. Not only that, all those guys should be in the hall of fame. They were hugely important in bringing back baseball after the strike, and have never been proven as illegitimate.
 
#88
#88
milohimself said:
Barry Bonds record is legit because he hasn't been proven guilty of anything.
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This isn't a legal issue; "proof of guilt" has nothing to do with it. The circumstantial evidence is pretty convincing. You've got the leaked grand jury testimony. You've got Bond's trainer going to jail rather than testifying. You've got the visual evidence of what has happened to Bond's body since the mid-90s. You've got the totally unprecendented, improbable late-career surge to Superman levels which just happened to be right in the middle of the steroid era. Would I vote to convict if this were a trial, with requirement of proof beyond a reasonable doubt? Probably not. Am I 99% certain that Bonds juiced? Yes.

Having said that, I don't know what this talk of legitmacy even means. He has the record; they're not going to strike him from the books. Bonds is your home run champion, at least for a few years. And I expect that that 73 will still be in the books when I'm teaching my grandkids to watch baseball.
 
#89
#89
That's what I mean. I know it's a sure bet Bonds has been roided up since '99. But since MLB never caught him, his records and everything else should be recorded as legit and he should still be a first-ballot hall of famer.

It's always been my opinion that while players are responsible for wether or not they take performance-enhancing drugs, MLB is responsible for catching cheaters.
 
#90
#90
milohimself said:
It's always been my opinion that while players are responsible for wether or not they take performance-enhancing drugs, MLB is responsible for catching cheaters.
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Baseball hasn't been that different from other sports; very few of them have been particularly interested in catching users of steriods and other performance enhancers. Baseball's indifference has just gotten it in the biggest bind because none of the other sports' statistics have quite the same mystique.

The interesting thing to think about is cycling. "Doping" is widely perceived to be destroying the sport, everybody's using, etc. etc. -- but cycling is probably the sport that tests the most aggressively, so of course they catch more people. I wonder what would the results would be if, say, baseball and American football tested some of the players literally every day like cycling does?
 
#91
#91
Barry hit a homer last night, it should immediately be erased because he was probably shooting up in the dugout.:rolleyes:
 
#92
#92
Vercingetorix said:
Baseball hasn't been that different from other sports; very few of them have been particularly interested in catching users of steriods and other performance enhancers. Baseball's indifference has just gotten it in the biggest bind because none of the other sports' statistics have quite the same mystique.
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Exactly correct. I've always found it perplexing that people can get so up in arms about steroids in baseball while dismissing the obvious steroids problem that the NFL had.
 
#93
#93
Lets just use common sense when it comes to Bonds. He was associated with BALCO, a company that made undectable 'roids in various ways. His friend and personal trainer is in jail ans was a known steroid dealer or whatever they are called.

Does anyone really think Barry was not anything based on that. I mean your personal trainer???
 
#94
#94
GAVol said:
Exactly correct. I've always found it perplexing that people can get so up in arms about steroids in baseball while dismissing the obvious steroids problem that the NFL had.
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It's the numbers. 755, 61, 511, 4191, .400 -- when you grow up a baseball fan, these kinds of numbers are practically talismanic in a way that football stats never are. The only football record that was even remotely in the same category was Jim Brown's all-time rushing yards record, and so many guys have passed it that it barely seems relevant anymore. Football statistics can't really be perceived as having been compromised because they barely matter in the first place.
 
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