A proposal for this state(weather related)

#1
KingNick865

KingNick865

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#1
I thought that this should go here, where more people would read. Plus, it could involve a ton of the state's money.

Anyways, in light of recent weather events, it has been brought to most people in the south's attention that we are extremely susceptible to bad weather.

With 2 people being killed in the Murfreesboro area this year, many killed last year in the Super Tuesday tornado outbreak. And 2006 saw 7 people killed in the April 6-7 tornado outbreak, something must be done to curb the fatalities in this state, due to weather.

A few numbers will back up my idea. First, did you know that the state of Tennessee leads the nation in tornado fatalities.

A study by Walker Ashley of Northern Illinois University shows troublesome findings pertaining to tornado fatalities in the southern US. Ashley used the NCDC’s Storm Data database and a long-term study of US tornadoes by Thomas Grazulis to examine fatalities from 1880-2005. A 60km x 60km grid of tornadoes and tornado fatalities from 1950-2005 reveals that even though the number of tornadoes are greater through the traditional Tornado Alley area, the majority of fatal tornado events occurred mainly outside of that region in the lower-Arkansas, Tennessee, and lower-Mississippi River valleys.
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If you live in the Memphis metro area, you have the highest chance of anyone in the nation to be killed by a tornado.

Also, most/all of you know about the traditional tornado alley. Well, there is something called the Dixie Alley. There are less tornadoes here, but the amount of significant(EF2/F2) tornadoes is actually higher than the traditional tornado alley.

My mind pondered something. How is it that more people are killed in the southern US in tornadoes, than in the traditional tornado alley?

Then it hit me. It's because they have storm shelters. It's because they have tornado sirens.

This brings me to my point/idea/proposal.

It's relatively simple. Make it mandatory for all houses in the state of Tennessee to have an underground storm shelter. New homes should have to have storm shelters built into the cost of the homes. Existing homes could have the state pay for part of the cost of an underground shelter. If you live in low-cost housing, the storm shelters would be provided, free of charge, by the state.

A storm shelter will run anywhere from $2,500-$10,000. Now, you would have the state paying for part of it, with a community action committee paying for another 25-35% of it. Other entities would pay for some of it. You would only pay for around 2-10% of the cost of one, if my plan were to become a law.

Now, another thing we need is tornado sirens. I know that the Memphis and Nashville have them. Knoxville, although climatologically, isn't that susceptible to bad weather, it would be nice to have them in the event of a warning.

A thunderbolt siren, if what I've heard correctly, costs around $30,000 per piece. I think Nashville has 32 of them. Meaning Knoxville would need around 10-20. Around $300,000-$600,000 for us and Chattanooga. Obviously, rural areas would need less sirens, so we'll say around $200,000 for each county.

A little under $20,000,000 for the sirens, around $20-$45 million for the shelters.

Which would be looking at around $40,000,000 at the floor, to around $65,000,000 for the ceiling costs.

Is it expensive? Absolutely. Is it needed? Absolutely. To save just 1 life from this program would make it worth it to the fullest.
 
#2
#2
What's really going to suck is when that earthquake hits the new madrid fault out there again. It's said that it will completely demolish the Memphis area. I'm willing to bet it can rival Katrina in damages. I don't think Memphis is too earthquake-friendly at the moment.
 
#3
#3
wbailey7 said:
What's really going to suck is when that earthquake hits the new madrid fault out there again. It's said that it will completely demolish the Memphis area. I'm willing to bet it can rival Katrina in damages. I don't think Memphis is too earthquake-friendly at the moment.
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That it isn't. However, the severe weather that Memphis experiences is a yearly thing. An earthquake there is a once every 500 years event.
 
#4
#4
I honestly think there are more worthwhile expenditures of taxpayer money.

plus, your plan apparently doesn't take into account the several million Tennesseans who live in apartments and condos.

also, you might be able to make a case for new home construction to include storm shelters, but retrofitting every house that doesn't already have one is somewhat ridiculous. What is the penalty for not installing an approved storm shelter?
 
#5
#5
MG1968 said:
I honestly think there are more worthwhile expenditures of taxpayer money.

plus, your plan apparently doesn't take into account the several million Tennesseans who live in apartments and condos.

also, you might be able to make a case for new home construction to include storm shelters, but retrofitting every house that doesn't already have one is somewhat ridiculous. What is the penalty for not installing an approved storm shelter?
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I'm still trying to think of that. I'm also trying to not put as much of a burden on the taxpayer as possible.

Just a preliminary idea at this point. I'm sure I'll have this more refined as time passes.
 
#6
#6
nickknx865 said:
I'm still trying to think of that. I'm also trying to not put as much of a burden on the taxpayer as possible.

Just a preliminary idea at this point. I'm sure I'll have this more refined as time passes.
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how about giving homeowners a tax break for installing a shelter instead of making it mandatory? Tennessee is subject to some pretty severe weather, but nothing that would justify using force of law to require a storm shelter. They're not even required in Oklahoma and the Texas panhandle.

Flooding and flash flooding are bigger killers than tornadoes, and Tennessee is far more susceptible to the former. What would be your plan to protect the populace from that menace?
 
#7
#7
MG1968 said:
how about giving homeowners a tax break for installing a shelter instead of making it mandatory? Tennessee is subject to some pretty severe weather, but nothing that would justify using force of law to require a storm shelter. They're not even required in Oklahoma and the Texas panhandle.

Flooding and flash flooding are bigger killers than tornadoes, and Tennessee is far more susceptible to the former. What would be your plan to protect the populace from that menace?
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There's nothing you can really do in a flood, besides sandbag, and try to find some higher ground.

Flash flooding, if I'm correct, kills more people than any other severe weather event. The reason it's so deadly is because there isn't a ton of action you can do, besides the things I just mentioned.
 
#8
#8
then why aren't you focused on the dangers posed by flash flooding as opposed to tornadoes?

what would you say if a family of 4 is killed while outside trying to access their storm shelter yet their house survived the tornado? Unless it's a mile wide F5, the damage path of a tornado is unpredictable at best. Your mandatory storm shelter would have people running around outside, possibly with debris flying.

I'm not going to fault you for good intentions, but your plan isn't very realistic. You haven't taken into account apartment dwellers, you obviously haven't thought about what happens when tornadoes hit during business and school hours. Does everybody run home to their shelters when the sirens go off?

There is simply no way you can legislate away the risks of daily life.
 
#9
#9
MG1968 said:
then why aren't you focused on the dangers posed by flash flooding as opposed to tornadoes?

what would you say if a family of 4 is killed while outside trying to access their storm shelter yet their house survived the tornado? Unless it's a mile wide F5, the damage path of a tornado is unpredictable at best. Your mandatory storm shelter would have people running around outside, possibly with debris flying.

I'm not going to fault you for good intentions, but your plan isn't very realistic. You haven't taken into account apartment dwellers, you obviously haven't thought about what happens when tornadoes hit during business and school hours. Does everybody run home to their shelters when the sirens go off?

There is simply no way you can legislate away the risks of daily life.
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They do have in-home shelters. But like I said, all of this is a preliminary plan.

The flash flooding thing, at least in Tennessee, doesn't pose as much of a threat, at least in the western 2/3rds of the state. Flooding might be a whole lot more common here in East TN, and that's why all the dams were built around here. Even still, a tornado seems to be a much more imposing threat in this part of the country.

I just wanted to throw out the idea, and see what people thought of it.
 
#10
#10
nickknx865 said:
Is it expensive? Absolutely. Is it needed? Absolutely. To save just 1 life from this program would make it worth it to the fullest.
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I think this is where you are completely wrong. But to be honest, your line of thinking falls right in line with most politicians.
 
#11
#11
Most of the fatalities in Tennessee happen to people who are not doing what they are supposed to, now. What makes you think those same people will now suddenly do what they are repeatedly told to do all because they now have a storm shelter?

An interior room or bathroom or bath tub is a perfectly safe and infinitely available resort, but people often try to get to their cars to flee the storm. I think those that tend to try to flee will still try to flee. The real difference in fatality numbers between the mid west and the south is that the south has more weak structures (trailers, self-built homes that are structurally inferior) than the mid west, and the level of education about what to do in a tornado warning/watch. Especially the second one. But if people don't know what to do now, they never will because they are told EVERY time such a watch or warning comes up.
 
#12
#12
nickknx865 said:
A storm shelter will run anywhere from $2,500-$10,000. Now, you would have the state paying for part of it, with a community action committee paying for another 25-35% of it. Other entities would pay for some of it. You would only pay for around 2-10% of the cost of one, if my plan were to become a law.
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only pay 2-10% of one? Really? Where would the state get their money and how would those who can't afford it get their shelter? Sounds just like all the "Free" healthcare in other countries.

nickknx865 said:
Is it expensive? Absolutely. Is it needed? Absolutely. To save just 1 life from this program would make it worth it to the fullest.
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no it wouldn't. Sorry but this is a ridiculous idea
 
#13
#13
nickknx865 said:
If you live in the Memphis metro area, you have the highest chance of anyone in the nation to be killed by a tornado.
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Source? I'd say it's possible Memphis has the most recent tornado fatalities, but I'd say there are less populated areas where your chance of encountering a deadly tornado is higher.
 
#14
#14
The problem is the mystery funding, not to mention upkeep of large shelters for apartments, condos, and universities. The burden would be on the taxpayer. Last I checked, Tennessee was slashing the budget left and right. Finding 40-65 million (which I imagine would actually double once your plan was implemented, due to relocation of utilities) isn't exactly easy when we can't fully fund education.

More, we've had what...3 fatalities in the past 2 years? How many before that? It's hard to measure saving a life in the 10s of millions of dollars. We may as well drop 100,000,000 on protecting from Africanized Bees, or better yet, Killer Clowns from Outerspace.
 
#15
#15
jwells said:
The problem is the mystery funding, not to mention upkeep of large shelters for apartments, condos, and universities. The burden would be on the taxpayer. Last I checked, Tennessee was slashing the budget left and right. Finding 40-65 million (which I imagine would actually double once your plan was implemented, due to relocation of utilities) isn't exactly easy when we can't fully fund education.

More, we've had what...3 fatalities in the past 2 years? How many before that? It's hard to measure saving a life in the 10s of millions of dollars. We may as well drop 100,000,000 on protecting from Africanized Bees, or better yet, Killer Clowns from Outerspace.
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Having everyone trade in their cars for Volvos would save more lives.
 
#16
#16
I think the better solution would be to make tornadoes illegal in Tennessee. Better yet, make death illegal.
 
#18
#18
This $2,500 to $10,000 figure, does that also account for all the excavation, delivery and installation involved? The reason I ask is once the government is involved the price for all these various aspects of installation always goes up. It will cost much more money than your estimate allows I'm afraid.

I think the government should give tax credits, work with insurance companies to provide discounts for those that have them installed. It does make good sense to push for new housing to provide for this measure of protection but retro fitting older homes would be very problematic.
 
#19
#19
IPorange said:
Most of the fatalities in Tennessee happen to people who are not doing what they are supposed to, now. What makes you think those same people will now suddenly do what they are repeatedly told to do all because they now have a storm shelter?

An interior room or bathroom or bath tub is a perfectly safe and infinitely available resort, but people often try to get to their cars to flee the storm. I think those that tend to try to flee will still try to flee. The real difference in fatality numbers between the mid west and the south is that the south has more weak structures (trailers, self-built homes that are structurally inferior) than the mid west, and the level of education about what to do in a tornado warning/watch. Especially the second one. But if people don't know what to do now, they never will because they are told EVERY time such a watch or warning comes up.
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How many people that built their own home do you know?
 
#20
#20
I don't think as many people have storm shelters in tornado alley as you might think and they aren't mandated, not even in new homes. If they aren't mandated in tornado alley, why make them mandatory in Tennessee? :twocents:
 
#21
#21
How about providing every Tennessee citizen with a suit made out of Bubblewrap? I bet it would be cheaper. Of course you'd have to make it a crime for someone to pop part of your suit for entertainment purposes.
 
#22
#22
kptvol said:
Source? I'd say it's possible Memphis has the most recent tornado fatalities, but I'd say there are less populated areas where your chance of encountering a deadly tornado is higher.
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tornado-alley-large.jpg


The chart shows where the highest rate of tornado fatalities are/occur.
 
#23
#23
oklavol said:
I don't think as many people have storm shelters in tornado alley as you might think and they aren't mandated, not even in new homes. If they aren't mandated in tornado alley, why make them mandatory in Tennessee? :twocents:
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To see if something like this would work. We don't have to go full scale with this. Have some sort of program in West TN, as a sort of a pilot.
 
#24
#24
nickknx865 said:
It's relatively simple. Make it mandatory for all houses in the state of Tennessee to have an underground storm shelter. New homes should have to have storm shelters built into the cost of the homes. Existing homes could have the state pay for part of the cost of an underground shelter. If you live in low-cost housing, the storm shelters would be provided, free of charge, by the state.

Now, another thing we need is tornado sirens.
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Hold up.... The builder and the clients do not need extra cost built into the price of a home. They already have enough of this govt forced fees to pay without forcing them to install storm shelters. People die in house fires often so should we REQUIRE sprinklers too? I agree our area is usually hit with bad weather a few times per year and yes, I am sorry to say some lives are lost but that is a risk you take and a low one at that. If you do not want that risk move to NY or some other area. All I am saying is that it is a rediculous request that the govt require folks to spend money, falsely inflating the cost of homes, because of a low risk of death. I would like to see an average of Tornado deaths per year in our state.

I will agree the tornado sirens are a great idea and should be in every community.

But I am just not for the govt telling us which risk to take and REQUIRING anything, less govt is good govt. Just my .02
 
#25
#25
Sjernigan88 said:
Hold up.... The builder and the clients do not need extra cost built into the price of a home. They already have enough of this govt forced fees to pay without forcing them to install storm shelters. People die in house fires often so should we REQUIRE sprinklers too? I agree our area is usually hit with bad weather a few times per year and yes, I am sorry to say some lives are lost but that is a risk you take and a low one at that. If you do not want that risk move to NY or some other area. All I am saying is that it is a rediculous request that the govt require folks to spend money, falsely inflating the cost of homes, because of a low risk of death. I would like to see an average of Tornado deaths per year in our state.

I will agree the tornado sirens are a great idea and should be in every community.

But I am just not for the govt telling us which risk to take and REQUIRING anything, less govt is good govt. Just my .02
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I understand what you're saying. While it is a low risk, it's gotta be something we at least look into.

Now, the tornado sirens, well, those should be in every single county in this state.
 
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