All Time NBA Players Thread - No Jordan vs. Lebron Debate Allowed

#626
#626
zjcvols said:
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At the time, the overwhelming consensus may have been that KD was better at their peaks (was it even Steph's peak?), but the rest of their careers gives context to that 3 year run.

KD is not a leader. He's not a system or an anchor. He's the greatest input of all-time, maybe. But he's not Steph. Steph is a system. Steph is a great leader. Steph is arguably the best teammate of all time. I wouldn't even call KD a good soldier. He's just a hired gun. Nobody is considering any of that when they are saying KD was better. There is a reason Steph has 4 titles and KD does not.

KD was definitely more talented, but being good at basketball is more than just realized talent. He doesn't have what Steph has between the ears. He doesn't have Steph's heart.
 
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#627
#627
n_huffhines said:
At the time, the overwhelming consensus may have been that KD was better at their peaks (was it even Steph's peak?), but the rest of their careers gives context to that 3 year run.

KD is not a leader. He's not a system or an anchor. He's the greatest input of all-time, maybe. But he's not Steph. Steph is a system. Steph is a great leader. Steph is arguably the best teammate of all time. I wouldn't even call KD a good soldier. He's just a hired gun. Nobody is considering any of that when they are saying KD was better. There is a reason Steph has 4 titles and KD does not.

KD was definitely more talented, but being good at basketball is more than just realized talent. He doesn't have what Steph has between the ears. He doesn't have Steph's heart.
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You just wonder what these players careers look like if one transaction happens and one doesn't.

Harden doesn't get trade
Meyers pulls the trigger on the Lee/Thompson for Love trade

Just two incredible what-if's in NBA history
 
#628
#628
zjcvols said:
You just wonder what these players careers look like if one transaction happens and one doesn't.

Harden doesn't get trade
Meyers pulls the trigger on the Lee/Thompson for Love trade

Just two incredible what-if's in NBA history
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I would like to see that Steph/Love combo, TBH. They might've been able to win one or two. Just gotta get past OKC and then play the Cavs with Wiggins.
 
#629
#629
n_huffhines said:
I would like to see that Steph/Love combo, TBH. They might've been able to win one or two. Just gotta get past OKC and then play the Cavs with Wiggins.
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Would that have worked defensively? They'd have Draymond/Bogut/Iggy/Livingston/Thompson to help cover them but man that just feels like with how they move and space it would have been a failure.
 
#630
#630
zjcvols said:
Would that have worked defensively? They'd have Draymond/Bogut/Iggy/Livingston/Thompson to help cover them but man that just feels like with how they move and space it would have been a failure.
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Barnes, too. IDK if it would have worked. I just wanna see it. The league changed and Love's powers were mitigated, but the Warriors were the pioneers in mitigating his powers. I think he would've been better there than anywhere else. They would have been worse at D and much better at rebounding.
 
#631
#631
The NBA letting the Kings wear the gold “champions” tag on the back because they won the 1951 NBA title as the Rochester Royals always cracks me up
 
#632
#632
Raja Bell said "on a scale of 1-10, how hard did Boris Diaw work...it's a 2." LMAO

His point was to say you should want your guys to work hard, but if they're good then they're good, so who really cares?...

But imagine what Diaw could've been if he were a 7, or whatever? He was so skilled for his size. He could've been the evolutionary iteration to precede Jokic, TBH. He should've been running way more offense. He wasn't in shape to, and you could tell he didn't GAF when his teams weren't good.
 
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#634
#634
zjcvols said:
The NBA letting the Kings wear the gold “champions” tag on the back because they won the 1951 NBA title as the Rochester Royals always cracks me up
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Just like the Braves claiming 4 WS when ATL has only won 2...

You get credit for the franchise*

*outside of a few instances.
 
#637
#637
zjcvols said:
Or counting World Series titles pre-integration in sports. It's just goofy
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The goofiest thing about the Kings title is that the NBA is not even remotely the same league today as it was in 1951. Baseball is kinda the same as it was in 1951. Hoops today isn't at all the same on any level. Specifically, the NBA has 4-5x times as many teams now and it's a major sport. It probably had lacrosse status in 1951.

The NFL accidentally got this totally right by separating the NFL championship era from the Super Bowl era. The NBA needs an official delineation like that, ABA post-merger.
 
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#639
#639
While I do agree, if this version of SGA replaced Jordan on any of those finals teams, they'd still win it, the unfair part of this is SGA is this skilled because he benefitted from 20 years of basketball evolution. If he were born in 1964 and on those Bulls teams, I'm not sure they win any titles. I'm not sure who he is. And nobody knows who Jordan would be today, but if he didn't go insane from the media, he'd probably be the most skilled 2 in the league and the most athletic one.

And the other part...to assume 8 finals for anybody (even Jordan...I hate when fans bank those baseball 2 like it would've certainly happened) is so stupid.
 
#640
#640
n_huffhines said:
While I do agree, if this version of SGA replaced Jordan on any of those finals teams, they'd still win it, the unfair part of this is SGA is this skilled because he benefitted from 20 years of basketball evolution. If he were born in 1964 and on those Bulls teams, I'm not sure they win any titles. I'm not sure who he is. And nobody knows who Jordan would be today, but if he didn't go insane from the media, he'd probably be the most skilled 2 in the league and the most athletic one.

And the other part...to assume 8 finals for anybody (even Jordan...I hate when fans bank those baseball 2 like it would've certainly happened) is so stupid.
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No disagreement. Great players would be great in most any era post integration. MJ wouldn’t be the same MJ in today’s game. But his effort and athleticism would translate, I believe.
 
#642
#642
zjcvols said:
I think what Jordan did for the second 3-peat is more impressive than the first 3-peat even though he was a better player. I don’t think people realize how stacked those 91-93 Bulls were
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I think the first 3peat they were better mostly bc Jordan was better. The '96 team was the best and then aged a lot the next two years. Yeah they won but the Jazz won 126 games and two WC titles in two years with a starter who couldn't make the NBA today, two small guards, and no bench. The league was kinda wack by then.
 
#643
#643
@n_huffhines interesting Jordan thing I noticed looking at his bask ref page when comparing him and SGA.

Jordan's 3P percentage fluctuated heavily through his career. He obviously had the spike in 95-97 when the line was moved forward and took more those 2-3 years. He was around 1.5 per game before 96. But in 90 and 93 he took more (3 per game) and shot over 35% those two years. But in 91/92 he dropped down 1.1 and 1.3 and shot 31% and 27% those two years. I'm curious if he was feeling it early and was confident to take more or if defenses played him different. Just an odd thing.
 
#644
#644
zjcvols said:
@n_huffhines interesting Jordan thing I noticed looking at his bask ref page when comparing him and SGA.

Jordan's 3P percentage fluctuated heavily through his career. He obviously had the spike in 95-97 when the line was moved forward and took more those 2-3 years. He was around 1.5 per game before 96. But in 90 and 93 he took more (3 per game) and shot over 35% those two years. But in 91/92 he dropped down 1.1 and 1.3 and shot 31% and 27% those two years. I'm curious if he was feeling it early and was confident to take more or if defenses played him different. Just an odd thing.
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It makes sense that his highest volume seasons are also his best shooting seasons. I imagine he was practicing them a lot more those years. I imagine in 1990 teams were happy to give him the 3p shot because of the times, and also because getting blown by was worse. I think as the decade went on, the league started defending the line more.

I know Jordan was reluctant to shoot 3's and didn't like them. As he got older, he realized he needed it more.

As for the shooting variance...when you're only taking about 3 3papg over a season, the difference between 35% and 38% or 32% is 7 makes. That's it.

The shooting data I would kill for is the 88-96 data here. I'm dying to know what he shot from 10-16' and 16-22' in his prime...it's gotta be better than the 96-98 data, but is it shockingly good or is modest?

1744734676483.png
 
#647
#647
Kobe. It appears all 3 of these guys we have full data for got better at mid-range from the middle to the end of their careers, but for some reason I don't think that will be the case for MJ. I bet he had better shooting early in his career.

1744735068625.png
 
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