Allan Houston's Number to be Retired-March 6 vs Kentucky

#26
#26
Ellis was a great player no doubt. His individual accomplishments and team accomplishments outshine Houston's.

But I didn't know Ellis when he was a college player and only saw him later in his pro career. I did see Allan Houston, and like other Vol fans, he brought some good memories to some otherwise bad teams, especially when I was nothing more than a thirteen year old boy. Watching Houston, Wiseman and Groves were good times, even though we weren't very good.

And as my own father has told me: You can't help who your daddy is.
 
#28
#28
Vercingetorix said:
I have to think that anybody who would pick Houston over Ellis isn't old enough to really remembering see Ellis play. He was phenomenal.
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You would be wrong.

I have much respect for Ellis as a basketball player and a Volunteer. I understand the merits of team accomplishments. I will be happy to see his shirt dangling from the rafters in the near future.

Houston was the better player.
 
#29
#29
cotton said:
You would be wrong.

I have much respect for Ellis as a basketball player and a Volunteer. I understand the merits of team accomplishments. I will be happy to see his shirt dangling from the rafters in the near future.

Houston was the better player.
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Better than Ellis? At what? Hell, I'm not sure he's even a better 2. Damn sure can't touch Ellis at any other spot. He might marginally outshoot Ellis, but can't touch him in any other department.
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#30
#30
cotton said:
You would be wrong.

I have much respect for Ellis as a basketball player and a Volunteer. I understand the merits of team accomplishments. I will be happy to see his shirt dangling from the rafters in the near future.

Houston was the better player.
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If you disregard defense and rebounding, there's some debate. Since I'm pretty sure those aspects of the game are still kind of important, there's none. Houston is a guy who rang up a bunch of big numbers without ever playing in a single meaningful game. I'm still waiting for an answer to my earlier question.
 
#33
#33
hatvol96 said:
If you disregard defense and rebounding, there's some debate. Since I'm pretty sure those aspects of the game are still kind of important, there's none. Houston is a guy who rang up a bunch of big numbers without ever playing in a single meaningful game. I'm still waiting for an answer to my earlier question.
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What was your question, how many multiple first team all-Americas were surrounded for four years by a collection of criminals ejected from school and an assortment of stiffs?

Surround Houston with players the caliber of Tyrone Beaman, Willie Burton, Michael Brooks and what would you get? Put Ellis out there with Gannon Goodson, Jermaine Brown, and Lang Weisman and how far do they go?

If I'm picking 5 among Tennessee's best in their prime, Houston is my second pick, and there isn't really a lot of thought that has to go into it. I believe you guys may be overpenalizing Houston for the poor supporting cast.
 
#34
#34
BigPapaVol said:
Better than Ellis? At what? Hell, I'm not sure he's even a better 2. Damn sure can't touch Ellis at any other spot. He might marginally outshoot Ellis, but can't touch him in any other department.
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I hadn't really considered different positions. Ellis would probably win out if I was forced to play them at center.
 
#35
#35
cotton said:
I hadn't really considered different positions. Ellis would probably win out if I was forced to play them at center.
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You know what I'm saying. Ellis is a near equal shooter and a truckload better in every other aspect of the game.
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#36
#36
cotton said:
What was your question, how many multiple first team all-Americas were surrounded for four years by a collection of criminals ejected from school and an assortment of stiffs?

Surround Houston with players the caliber of Tyrone Beaman, Willie Burton, Michael Brooks and what would you get? Put Ellis out there with Gannon Goodson, Jermaine Brown, and Lang Weisman and how far do they go?

If I'm picking 5 among Tennessee's best in their prime, Houston is my second pick, and there isn't really a lot of thought that has to go into it. I believe you guys may be overpenalizing Houston for the poor supporting cast.
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Quick, name Gary Payton's teammates his last two years at Oregon State. Not a single one of them is as good as Ian Lockhart, Carlus Groves, or Greg Bell. I get it. You've got a soft spot for soft shooting guards from the Bluegrass State. That doesn't change the fact Houston was a one dimensional player who is, at the end of the day, meaningless in the history of UT basketball. If he had never played a game at UT, the program wouldn't have been any less successful.
 
#38
#38
I understand the back and forth of which player is more deserving, but I don't really get bashing the one player to prove a point.

And i have zero clue who was better in college, I just don't see the point of calling somebody basically worthless. Obviously he is not.
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#39
#39
BigPapaVol said:
You know what I'm saying. Ellis is a near equal shooter and a truckload better in every other aspect of the game.
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His rebounding numbers aren't really that differentiating once you consider that Ellis was playing forward and Houston guard. I honestly cannot evaluate the quality of either as a college defender two or three decades after seeing them on the floor.

hatvol96 said:
Quick, name Gary Payton's teammates his last two years at Oregon State. Not a single one of them is as good as Ian Lockhart, Carlus Groves, or Greg Bell. I get it. You've got a soft spot for soft shooting guards from the Bluegrass State. That doesn't change the fact Houston was a one dimensional player who is, at the end of the day, meaningless in the history of UT basketball. If he had never played a game at UT, the program wouldn't have been any less successful.
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It isn't a soft spot for Bluegrass guards. I have no love for Ballard, with pretty good reason, although that stems from the DeJuan Wheat era post-Houston. You are correct that Allan didn't take the program to lofty heights. UT would have been awful with him or without. I think you are emphasizing that too much in your evaluation of him as a player.

By that same measure, Eric Berry wasn't much of a safety, and Stanley Morgan wasn't all that special wherever he lined up. Yet something still tells me that all three of those guys were really good players, among the best to wear orange, on not so good teams.
 
#40
#40
cotton said:
His rebounding numbers aren't really that differentiating once you consider that Ellis was playing forward and Houston guard. I honestly cannot evaluate the quality of either as a college defender two or three decades after seeing them on the floor.



It isn't a soft spot for Bluegrass guards. I have no love for Ballard, with pretty good reason, although that stems from the DeJuan Wheat era post-Houston. You are correct that Allan didn't take the program to lofty heights. UT would have been awful with him or without. I think you are emphasizing that too much in your evaluation of him as a player.

By that same measure, Eric Berry wasn't much of a safety, and Stanley Morgan wasn't all that special wherever he lined up. Yet something still tells me that all three of those guys were really good players, among the best to wear orange, on not so good teams.
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As a running back, Stanley Morgan wasn't all that special. Tennessee's defenses weren't the problem during Eric Berry's tenure.

Great players can elevate their teams in basketball like no other collegiate sport. Houston failed miserably in that regard.
 
#41
#41
hatvol96 said:
Quick, name Gary Payton's teammates his last two years at Oregon State. Not a single one of them is as good as Ian Lockhart, Carlus Groves, or Greg Bell. I get it. You've got a soft spot for soft shooting guards from the Bluegrass State. That doesn't change the fact Houston was a one dimensional player who is, at the end of the day, meaningless in the history of UT basketball. If he had never played a game at UT, the program wouldn't have been any less successful.
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The criteria for jersey retirement is much more focused on awards (reasonable) and NBA accomplishments (not reasonable, imo) than on what they did for the program.
 
#42
#42
BigPapaVol said:
I'm taking Ellis and it isn't close.
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:yes:

Dale's Jr season was probably my favorite to watch. Don DeVoe's defensive scheme was beautiful; Michael Brooks shot 50% on almost exclusively outside shots (and clutch FT down the stretch); and Dale was absolutely unstoppable (65% I believe) while constantly double and triple teamed.
 
#43
#43
Why are we arguing about this? Both guys are deserving of this honor, and will both have their jerseys retired before it's all said and done. There is merit in an earlier post, though, when someone mentioned the age of the posters in respect to their opinions on this debate. I'm barely old enough to have seen Ellis play, but I remember the Houston era well (good player, awful teams....thanks, Wade).
 
#44
#44
hatvol96 said:
Ellis was a solid rebounder and guarded everyone from Ralph Sampson to Charles Barkley well.

Allan Houston managed to play four years without offering any meaningful defensive resistance to the man he was guarding or ever getting rebound that really mattered.

I always love to ask this question when people try and pass Houston off as an all time SEC great: Since the field was expanded to 64, who is another allegedly great player who played 3 or 4 years at a major conference school and never made a single NCAA appearance?
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I agree he was 90% offense but consider his coach and fellow players I'm not sure many would have made it to the NCAA. Dale Ellis was the better player I agree.
 
#45
#45
Houston was a very gifted offensive player. Ellis was the better all around player. However, I blame the coach for the poor performance of the team while Houston played, not the player. He carried the team offensively while there and that's what he was asked to do. He is the second best offensive player to play at UT, much better offensively than Ellis. Hat is correct that the team had sufficient talent around Houston to have performed much better, but that falls on coaching, not on the player Houston.
 
#46
#46
I like to break these comparisons down to who would I pick first if I were building a team. I'd pick Ellis for my team.
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#48
#48
Vercingetorix said:
I have to think that anybody who would pick Houston over Ellis isn't old enough to really remembering see Ellis play. He was phenomenal.
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Good post and i agree. Ellis is still my one of my two favorite Vols with Michael Brooks being the other.
 
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