Any thoughts on the Confederate flags

#26
#26
(utvolpj @ Aug 2 said:
Some say treason and some say patriotism. Their act set many things in motion for changes to the US that may not have occurred otherwise.

The colonists were committing treason in 1776. The only side that gets to write history is the side that wins.

Comparing the Civil War to the Revolution is ridiculous. The colonists, in 1776, did not have any way to represent their beliefs in Parliament. The colonists were also the subject of various injustices by the British from the time the French Indian War ended until we won our independence.

The citizens and government of South Carolina suffered no great injustices at the hands of the gov't in D.C. They also had their share of representatives in Congress (the share that they agreed to when delegates from SC signed on to ratify the Constitution.) Further, SC seceded solely on the basis that their guy was not elected president. Lincoln had yet to support any acts of legislation, sign or veto any legislation, appoint Supreme Court Justices, etc. After prematurely seceding, the SC militia then fired on Federal Troops who were sent to Ft. Sumter (Federal Property) to, presumably, remove what belonged to the Federal Gov't.

I cannot see any 'nobility' in any of this.
 
#29
#29
Sorry Real, honestly not trying to give you crap...

BTW, Empire is gonna kick himself for not being around when this thread popped up...
 
#30
#30
(orange+white=heaven @ Aug 3 said:
Sorry Real, honestly not trying to give you crap...

BTW, Empire is gonna kick himself for not being around when this thread popped up...

I have no problem with your correction. It was a pretty stupid mistake on my part. Is OE a big Confederate supporter?
 
#33
#33
(jayisavol @ Aug 3 said:
personally i am embarressed when i see one.

It's not nearly as embarassing to see one flying as it is to see somebody wearing one.
 
#34
#34
(GAVol @ Aug 3 said:
It's not nearly as embarassing to see one flying as it is to see somebody wearing one.
you said what???

bikinijoe_rebel.jpg
 
#36
#36
(therealUT @ Aug 3 said:
Comparing the Civil War to the Revolution is ridiculous. The colonists, in 1776, did not have any way to represent their beliefs in Parliament. The colonists were also the subject of various injustices by the British from the time the French Indian War ended until we won our independence.

The citizens and government of South Carolina suffered no great injustices at the hands of the gov't in D.C. They also had their share of representatives in Congress (the share that they agreed to when delegates from SC signed on to ratify the Constitution.) Further, SC seceded solely on the basis that their guy was not elected president. Lincoln had yet to support any acts of legislation, sign or veto any legislation, appoint Supreme Court Justices, etc. After prematurely seceding, the SC militia then fired on Federal Troops who were sent to Ft. Sumter (Federal Property) to, presumably, remove what belonged to the Federal Gov't.

I cannot see any 'nobility' in any of this.
I agree with what you are saying real. However, both the colonists and the confederates revolted against the legally recognized government of their time, and based solely on that act alone, both committed treason. Because of the fact that we won the Revolution the patriots are viewed as heros, but how would history have judged them if they had lost? I imagine they would have been judged by history in much the same way as the confederates are viewed today. Just my :twocents:
 
#37
#37
I'm more concerned about the gradual erosion of the bill of rights and freedom of speech then I am about people being offended by others exercising their right to free speech.

I heard on the radio there are only a couple of countries where it is illegal to burn their nation's flag; Iran, China, etc. These are not countries to be emulating. This is no different. People have a right to be insensitive, to burn flags, etc. Its protected by freedom of speech.
 
#38
#38
(VolunteerHillbilly @ Aug 3 said:
you said what???

bikinijoe_rebel.jpg
Excellent response! Personally I am tired of all the PC people trying to impose their will on the masses. Slavery sucked big time but when was the last time you went to a slave auction?
 
#39
#39
I don't have any thoughts on the Confederate Flag except that I only see them on rusty pick up trucks with gun racks.
 
#40
#40
The problem isn't the flag, per se.

Abraham Lincoln said that he thought Blacks were so physically inferior they should never be citizens and said in his first innaugaral address that he wouldn't free the slaves even if it turned out he had the legal right to do so. Yet, in the time since, he has become a profound mythic figure & martyr of support for Civil Rights- the falseness of his myth is completely irrelevent to the power of the man's name today as a symbol.

Likewise, the Confederate Battle Flag was something different (for at least a some people) about a century and a half ago. Since then, like Lincoln, however, it has become something else. Completely and totally something else. And because it is a visual symbol, hitting the eye and mind with an immediacy that needs no words, it also hits us in a way which makes words not just irrelevant, but moot.

We can still argue about many things having to do with the Civil War- Lord knows we've subjected the general subject to so much glossing and white-lies (so to speak) that we probably ought to argue it more than we do for integrity's sake.

But the Confederate Battle Flag is a complete and total lost cause, and anyone who doesn't recognize that is either naiive, a putz, or a bigot pretending innocence. Like it or not, the Stars & Bars symbol has become so deeply associated with racist backwardness it can never be anything else.

'Look' at it this way- how likely is it that we will reject the lies we currently tell about that open and vocal racist, Abraham Lincoln, making him out to be a friend of the slaves.

Yet Lincoln, for us today, is an abstract concept. A subject of intellectual argument, however sacrosanct he may be.

The Stars & Bars, on the other hand, isn't abstract, it's a image that hits our eyes just as fresh today as it ever did. That's the whole POINT of coming up with flags and visual symbols, so that they hit your eye in a way that by-passes discussion.


There is a vast amount of Southern culture which isn't qualified, much less invalidated by either slavery or racism.

There is a lot that is, however, an there's no better symbol and representatives for it than people who keep trying to save the Stars & Bars because they just can't seem to grasp that the visual symbol of that flag is tainted with associations of racism & hate beyond any chance of redemption. It can never, ever again be a symbol for any aspects of southern culture that shouldn't- and thank the gods are- a lost cause.

Displaying it and then trying to pretend it only stands for the good parts of Southern culture, is like flying a swastika and claiming it is really just a Native American spiritual symbol.



 
#41
#41
Though it scares me slightly . . . I agree with you 100%. :D Good post.
 
#43
#43
"It doesn't matter if it is the Flag of the Confederacy, or Indian Nicknames or whatever, the NCAA needs to focus on athletics and not politics. Last time I looked it was not a part of the U.S. legislature, executive or judicial branches."
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

The above quote is my exact same feeling. NCAA President Myles Brand and his executive committees of pointy-headed liberals need to pay more attention to the NCAA and quit trying to impose their Socialistic views on the American people.

They sit around and pontificate their ridiculous liberal views while NCCA Sports players are arrested, booked and convicted of crimes. The NCAA and it's rules against sports dormatories is a classic example of their meddle-some socialistic policies. The NCAA cannot even police their own conferences and players so they certainly have no need to be in our lives.

They are a group of POINTY-HEADED LIBERALS who think they can legislate our sports and lives. They lost their focus years ago. They are more dangerous than you think.

1. No team dormatories (they're needed for the immature athletes who do not "get it".

2. The mascot ruling

3. Telling states what flags they display

I do not see the name NCAA any place in the United States Constitution as it relates to regulatory issues.
 
#44
#44
(Arclight @ Aug 5 said:
"It doesn't matter if it is the Flag of the Confederacy, or Indian Nicknames or whatever, the NCAA needs to focus on athletics and not politics. Last time I looked it was not a part of the U.S. legislature, executive or judicial branches."
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

The above quote is my exact same feeling. NCAA President Myles Brand and his executive committees of pointy-headed liberals need to pay more attention to the NCAA and quit trying to impose their Socialistic views on the American people.

They sit around and pontificate their ridiculous liberal views while NCCA Sports players are arrested, booked and convicted of crimes. The NCAA and it's rules against sports dormatories is a classic example of their meddle-some socialistic policies. The NCAA cannot even police their own conferences and players so they certainly have no need to be in our lives.

They are a group of POINTY-HEADED LIBERALS who think they can legislate our sports and lives. They lost their focus years ago. They are more dangerous than you think.

1. No team dormatories (they're needed for the immature athletes who do not "get it".

2. The mascot ruling

3. Telling states what flags they display

I do not see the name NCAA any place in the United States Constitution as it relates to regulatory issues.

The issue is in regards to hosting NCAA Championship Events. Therefore, the NCAA can rule however it wants to. If SC wants to host NCAA Championships, then they will conform. If not, they won't. It is a choice.
 

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