are fans pulling against UT so Holly is fired?

[glv98]

Could it be these players were overrated! This happens you know! But of course this staff recruited these kids!

All of them over rated? Sure there's the occassional ratings bust, but this many in so few years?. Don't make me name them all again. When equally rated hs players do well other places? May be overlooking another common denominator.

And I'll be the first to admit that I was a Diamond "hater" while she was at UT. I'm still not crazy about her attitude, but she wasn't as bad of a ball player as Holly made her look.

Ah Diamond. I swear I'm going to write a 30 for 30 on the downfall of the LVs, the bottomless pit of bad decisions and bad luck that have dogged poor Holly. In my story, the Diamond episode is the turning point.

At the exact time Holly should have firmly been claiming the program and players as her own, in lands Diamond and her Dad. What could possibly go wrong? No one's particular fault, just the worst possible player/coach match up at worst possible time. With Cooper thrown in as a bonus! It's been straight downhill for CHW since.

I've always been intrigued as to who's idea it all was. I heard Dearstone (yes, I know) say on the radio DD would NEVER be a Lady Vol. A week or so later, she was here. How'd that happen? Need to know for the doc. BTW, I'm happy for Diamond's happy ending.

 

[VolBall09]

Ah Diamond. I swear I'm going to write a 30 for 30 on the downfall of the LVs, the bottomless pit of bad decisions and bad luck that have dogged poor Holly. In my story, the Diamond episode is the turning point.

At the exact time Holly should have firmly been claiming the program and players as her own, in lands Diamond and her Dad. What could possibly go wrong? No one's particular fault, just the worst possible player/coach match up at worst possible time. With Cooper thrown in as a bonus! It's been straight downhill for CHW since.

I've always been intrigued as to who's idea it all was. I heard Dearstone (yes, I know) say on the radio DD would NEVER be a Lady Vol. A week or so later, she was here. How'd that happen? Need to know for the doc. BTW, I'm happy for Diamond's happy ending.

I believe you are correct, that was the beginning of the end. She and Holly were definitely oil and water and it didn't help having her high profile parents posting stuff on social media all the time.

I think she ended up at UT because the other schools she was considering took other transfers. I thought she was going to go to SC with Grey, but as soon as I saw Davis was also going there I knew she wouldn't. They had played together in high school for a couple seasons and had a falling out.

Her mom ran tack at UT so I think that was probably what most of her final decision was based on.

 

[Amb3096]

Ah Diamond. I swear I'm going to write a 30 for 30 on the downfall of the LVs, the bottomless pit of bad decisions and bad luck that have dogged poor Holly. In my story, the Diamond episode is the turning point.

At the exact time Holly should have firmly been claiming the program and players as her own, in lands Diamond and her Dad. What could possibly go wrong? No one's particular fault, just the worst possible player/coach match up at worst possible time. With Cooper thrown in as a bonus! It's been straight downhill for CHW since.

I've always been intrigued as to who's idea it all was. I heard Dearstone (yes, I know) say on the radio DD would NEVER be a Lady Vol. A week or so later, she was here. How'd that happen? Need to know for the doc. BTW, I'm happy for Diamond's happy ending.

I think one thing that is overlooked is that Izzy, Cierra and Ariel were very good leaders. I don't think it's coincidence that the team lost their identity when they left, and then you have Diamond coming in who probably christened herself a leader, but lacked the maturity to do so. Looking at that roster her first year with Tennessee, it was all followers. It's been that way since. Jaime was the closest they've had since, but she was too passive. I was watching Iowa State during the B12 tournament, and it's clear that Alexa Middleton provides on-court leadership. Maybe not the most talented player, but I think that last year she could have provided great guidance to the freshmen if she didn't transfer.

This year? No leadership from Evina or Rennia, Meme is all over the place, Cheridene too quiet, and the freshmen look lost.

 

[lvocd]

Her mom ran tack at UT so I think that was probably what most of her final decision was based on.

The fact that she wanted to be a Lady Vol since she was a toddler was likely the reason. Just look at this cute photo of Diamond!

 

[Jax_Vol]

Holly cut off my fingers and turned me into a newt.

 

[madtownvol]

I think one thing that is overlooked is that Izzy, Cierra and Ariel were very good leaders. I don't think it's coincidence that the team lost their identity when they left, and then you have Diamond coming in who probably christened herself a leader, but lacked the maturity to do so. Looking at that roster her first year with Tennessee, it was all followers. It's been that way since. Jaime was the closest they've had since, but she was too passive. I was watching Iowa State during the B12 tournament, and it's clear that Alexa Middleton provides on-court leadership. Maybe not the most talented player, but I think that last year she could have provided great guidance to the freshmen if she didn't transfer.

This year? No leadership from Evina or Rennia, Meme is all over the place, Cheridene too quiet, and the freshmen look lost.

I agree with your points about Izzy, Cierra, and Ariel but I also recall the responses they drew on this board. Ariel drew a lot of animosity and lots of accusations that she faking her concussion systems (or weak willed). Cierra had her share of haters too, though I never really understood why.

But again, I come back to systems and not players. That group had the benefit of CPS and her system, even though she was in decline.

Have you noticed how the New England Patriots have made a routine of "rehabilitating" players who other teams have given up on? Do these players suddenly find missing character or does the ethos of the team and its organizational structure bring them in line.

Presumably when the "toxic" DD left, everything was supposed to fall in place but guess what, that sea change really did not happen because I presume Nared and Russell just lacked that magic "leadership" gene.

How do we you know Evina is not a good leader? Oh the team is not doing well so it must be Evina's fault. Yes, I mean WHO else could be responsible and WHO else just happened to be around when all these "players" failed in their leadership roles over the last 4-5 years.

Think, think, think....

 

[VolBall09]

The fact that she wanted to be a Lady Vol since she was a toddler was likely the reason. Just look at this cute photo of Diamond!

That photo just proves my point. She didn't want to be a Lady Vol in that photo, her parents wanted her to be one. Pretty sure that's about the only reason she came UT. If North Carolina hadn't had their big education scandal I'm sure she would have stayed.

 

[VolBall09]

I agree with your points about Izzy, Cierra, and Ariel but I also recall the responses they drew on this board. Ariel drew a lot of animosity and lots of accusations that she faking her concussion systems (or weak willed). Cierra had her share of haters too, though I never really understood why.

But again, I come back to systems and not players. That group had the benefit of CPS and her system, even though she was in decline.

Have you noticed how the New England Patriots have made a routine of "rehabilitating" players who other teams have given up on? Do these players suddenly find missing character or does the ethos of the team and its organizational structure bring them in line.

Presumably when the "toxic" DD left, everything was supposed to fall in place but guess what, that sea change really did not happen because I presume Nared and Russell just lacked that magic "leadership" gene.

How do we you know Evina is not a good leader? Oh the team is not doing well so it must be Evina's fault. Yes, I mean WHO else could be responsible and WHO else just happened to be around when all these "players" failed in their leadership roles over the last 4-5 years.

Think, think, think....

I think the biggest problem in that whole mess was Jamie and Diamond butting heads so much. Created a split in the team and it wasn't repairable in the one season after DD left and Jamie played without her.

Hard to tell which one of them would have been the better leader because they spent the entire time fighting for the reins.

I agree with your statements about Evina, I thought she was leading the team very well up until their first big losing streak when they dropped 6 in a row. I think something happened just before that, she looked super disinterested, wasn't talking to her teammates on the floor anymore, wasn't smiling etc. In December there were articles all over the places about what a "Breakout Season" she was having and how great of a leader she had become. She was on the list for all the major awards and then January happened.

Hard to say, but I think she and Holly had a falling out. I also wonder if she was left off the SEC teams etc at Holly's request? I think she's transferring after this season, I hope not, but that's what my gut says.

 

[LasVegasBill23]

I believe you are correct, that was the beginning of the end. She and Holly were definitely oil and water and it didn't help having her high profile parents posting stuff on social media all the time.

I think she ended up at UT because the other schools she was considering took other transfers. I thought she was going to go to SC with Grey, but as soon as I saw Davis was also going there I knew she wouldn't. They had played together in high school for a couple seasons and had a falling out.

Her mom ran tack at UT so I think that was probably what most of her final decision was based on.

Diamond was DIVA personified..... lots of natural talent.... but it got her nowhere..... We do this all the time... get the natural athlete... highly rated.... but how do they function in a TEAM environment

 

[madtownvol]

I think the biggest problem in that whole mess was Jamie and Diamond butting heads so much. Created a split in the team and it wasn't repairable in the one season after DD left and Jamie played without her.


Hard to say, but I think she and Holly had a falling out. I also wonder if she was left off the SEC teams etc at Holly's request? I think she's transferring after this season, I hope not, but that's what my gut says.

Yes, that makes perfect sense that Holly would conspire to keep her starting PG off the SEC team because reasons.....

Losing streaks tend to have a negative effect on players. Funny, I did not see any evidence that Evina was not talking to teammates or engaging in other detrimental behaviors other than being obviously frustrated.

And every season, there is always a set of folks who just know in their bones that someone is going transfer but..

 

[Amb3096]

I agree with your points about Izzy, Cierra, and Ariel but I also recall the responses they drew on this board. Ariel drew a lot of animosity and lots of accusations that she faking her concussion systems (or weak willed). Cierra had her share of haters too, though I never really understood why.

But again, I come back to systems and not players. That group had the benefit of CPS and her system, even though she was in decline.

Have you noticed how the New England Patriots have made a routine of "rehabilitating" players who other teams have given up on? Do these players suddenly find missing character or does the ethos of the team and its organizational structure bring them in line.

Presumably when the "toxic" DD left, everything was supposed to fall in place but guess what, that sea change really did not happen because I presume Nared and Russell just lacked that magic "leadership" gene.

How do we you know Evina is not a good leader? Oh the team is not doing well so it must be Evina's fault. Yes, I mean WHO else could be responsible and WHO else just happened to be around when all these "players" failed in their leadership roles over the last 4-5 years.

Think, think, think....

Oh, believe me...you will never find me defending Holly. I agree this is all a byproduct of the system she created, and I'm not putting any blame on the players. I think that Ariel, Cierra and Izzy were able to mask Holly's coaching inability because they were either born or developed leaders. Given Holly's inability to develop leaders and the fact that the players didn't have it "in" them (whether naturally or developed by virtue of exposure to a capable coach early in their college careers), it was a recipe for disaster. It was a given that there was no leadership on the sideline, and since none of the players could overcompensate for that disadvantage, it's no surprise that the program is where it is.

 

[VolBall09]

Yes, that makes perfect sense that Holly would conspire to keep her starting PG off the SEC team because reasons.....

Losing streaks tend to have a negative effect on players. Funny, I did not see any evidence that Evina was not talking to teammates or engaging in other detrimental behaviors other than being obviously frustrated.

And every season, there is always a set of folks who just know in their bones that someone is going transfer but..

We will see, I felt like there was an obvious change in her demeanor after the Christmas break compared to before. Even before they started losing.

I have heard of coaches specifically asking for players to be left off of post season awards lists to motivate them. Whether or not the committee listens to the coaches I have no idea.

I have no proof that she is in the transfer mindset, but that's how it appears to me. I felt like she picked up her game the last few games of the season to up her transfer stock. Big red flag for me was missing that class and thus missing the MSST game. Starting point guards with a big game coming up like that just don't do that kind of thing if they're really invested in the team. Maybe just a young mistake, but I felt like she didn't really care one way or another that she missed that game.

 

[Amb3096]

We will see, I felt like there was an obvious change in her demeanor after the Christmas break compared to before. Even before they started losing.

I have heard of coaches specifically asking for players to be left off of post season awards lists to motivate them. Whether or not the committee listens to the coaches I have no idea.

I have no proof that she is in the transfer mindset, but that's how it appears to me. I felt like she picked up her game the last few games of the season to up her transfer stock. Big red flag for me was missing that class and thus missing the MSST game. Starting point guards with a big game coming up like that just don't do that kind of thing if they're really invested in the team. Maybe just a young mistake, but I felt like she didn't really care one way or another that she missed that game.

I think she was less than 100% healthy, and that affected her play on the court. I also don't think that she was in the running for any of the awards. Zero chance she was a first team candidate, and all the players on the 2nd team had more deserving cases. She would have had more of a chance if Tennessee didn't suck as much as they did.

As for the transfer thing...there was her mom's comment on the facebook page. Whether that means anything or not...we should find out probably by next week once Tennessee is eliminated this weekend. I've said it before and I'll say it again: she would be a fool to continue playing for Holly. She's not getting any better, and she must know this. It wouldn't surprise me in the least bit to see her pack up if Holly isn't relieved of her coaching duties by the end of the month.

 

[VolBall09]

I think she was less than 100% healthy, and that affected her play on the court. I also don't think that she was in the running for any of the awards. Zero chance she was a first team candidate, and all the players on the 2nd team had more deserving cases. She would have had more of a chance if Tennessee didn't suck as much as they did.

As for the transfer thing...there was her mom's comment on the facebook page. Whether that means anything or not...we should find out probably by next week once Tennessee is eliminated this weekend. I've said it before and I'll say it again: she would be a fool to continue playing for Holly. She's not getting any better, and she must know this. It wouldn't surprise me in the least bit to see her pack up if Holly isn't relieved of her coaching duties by the end of the month.

I wouldn't say she's not getting better. She absolutely improved from her freshman season to her sophomore season. How much of that was due to Holly? Likely very little.

I know she has a nagging knee injury, but she looked mentally out of it, just a glum face from the end of December onward.

Start of the season she was acting like a coach on the floor. Talking to the freshman when they made mistake, talking them through how the play runs. Same with Meme.

After the start of the year all of that stopped. She looked mentally checked out to me.

 

[Amb3096]

I wouldn't say she's not getting better. She absolutely improved from her freshman season to her sophomore season. How much of that was due to Holly? Likely very little.

I know she has a nagging knee injury, but she looked mentally out of it, just a glum face from the end of December onward.

Start of the season she was acting like a coach on the floor. Talking to the freshman when they made mistake, talking them through how the play runs. Same with Meme.

After the start of the year all of that stopped. She looked mentally checked out to me.

I think she's shooting the ball more and looking for her shot more, but I see no improvement in her abilities as a PG. Same careless turnovers, same defensive lapses. They say the greatest improvement is between freshman and sophomore years, and I really don't see that much improvement from her other than a willingness to take (and sometimes make) such a high difficulty shot that Meighan Simmons is probably watching and saying, "Wow, I can't believe she took that shot!"

I also think her leadership voice was louder in the OOC when they were playing a bunch of overmatched cupcakes, but once they were playing teams with the athleticism and skills to not just be run over once Tennessee decided to stop d!cking around, then she was as lost as the rest of them.

 

[VolBall09]

I think she's shooting the ball more and looking for her shot more, but I see no improvement in her abilities as a PG. Same careless turnovers, same defensive lapses. They say the greatest improvement is between freshman and sophomore years, and I really don't see that much improvement from her other than a willingness to take (and sometimes make) such a high difficulty shot that Meighan Simmons is probably watching and saying, "Wow, I can't believe she took that shot!"

I also think her leadership voice was louder in the OOC when they were playing a bunch of overmatched cupcakes, but once they were playing teams with the athleticism and skills to not just be run over once Tennessee decided to stop d!cking around, then she was as lost as the rest of them.

I'm sorry but I do not agree. She improved across the board in every statistical category from a year ago. She shot the ball at a better percentage from the field, significantly better from 3, significantly better form the FT line. She had more assists and fewer turnovers than a season ago.

That's improvement. Whether you want to admit it or not.

 

[glv98]

Regarding why Diamond came here, I was more asking why we decided ultimately to take that known risk. Seems like there may have been some hesitation on the LVs part at first. Diamond's Diva tendencies were not exactly a secret. Forgot her Mom was a former LV, I'm sure that helped. And there were also all those points you figured she'd score . . .

Unfortunately the outcome seemed to be Holly lost a degree of control of the team she never got back.

I'm sorry but I do not agree. She improved across the board in every statistical category from a year ago. She shot the ball at a better percentage from the field, significantly better from 3, significantly better form the FT line. She had more assists and fewer turnovers than a season ago.

That's improvement. Whether you want to admit it or not.

I'm no bball genius but its easy to see why Evina fell off sharply after a good start: better competition. Same reason that 10-0 records looked so good.

I see her really trying to achieve the mythical "leadership" role and that's admirable. I see Davis trying to avoid it btw. But IMO Evina's play is still way too inconsistent and erratic to earn her that role. She may have statistically improved at the halfway point in her career, and I'd expect that. But she hasn't improved, IMO, as much as she should have or as much as it takes to be a solid, winning SEC point guard. May have fewer turnovers than last year but still way too many and too often in bunches. Also guilty of blownby defense alot.

Maybe she will, I sure hope so.

 

[LA Vol]

Diamond, Annie, etc. wouldn't have been an issue under a strong-minded coach that commanded their respect. Winning coaches are disciplinarians whose strong leadership earns the respect of their players and the parents. Holly is soft on the players, which makes some of them think they can do what they want-- and makes their parents think they can criticize the HC and team decisions on social media.

Pat would have had no trouble managing Diamond and Jaime, Te'a and Jaime, and Annie and Evina at the same time, without allowing it to affect team chemistry. The recent transfers and early departures of seasoned players have hurt the team-- and all have been avoidable.

 

[VolBall09]

Regarding why Diamond came here, I was more asking why we decided ultimately to take that known risk. Seems like there may have been some hesitation on the LVs part at first. Diamond's Diva tendencies were not exactly a secret. Forgot her Mom was a former LV, I'm sure that helped. And there were also all those points you figured she'd score . . .

Unfortunately the outcome seemed to be Holly lost a degree of control of the team she never got back.

I'm no bball genius but its easy to see why Evina fell off sharply after a good start: better competition. Same reason that 10-0 records looked so good.

I see her really trying to achieve the mythical "leadership" role and that's admirable. I see Davis trying to avoid it btw. But IMO Evina's play is still way too inconsistent and erratic to earn her that role. She may have statistically improved at the halfway point in her career, and I'd expect that. But she hasn't improved, IMO, as much as she should have or as much as it takes to be a solid, winning SEC point guard. May have fewer turnovers than last year but still way too many and too often in bunches. Also guilty of blownby defense alot.

Maybe she will, I sure hope so.

Agree to disagree. Her numbers were pretty consistent across the season and actually all of them, except her 3 point shot, improved in conference play compared to non-conference play. The rise in the level of competition was not on the court. It was on the sideline. Holly is the problem and I'm not here for people blaming Evina or claiming she's not good. If you notice, the only games we won in SEC play were against teams with a mediocre coach. Gary Blair, Dawn Staley, Mike Neighbors, Kristy Curry, Matthew Mitchell and Vic Schaefer could beat Holly blindfolded and with half their roster.

As for Diamond, I believe a lot of Tea Cooper's decision hinged on what Diamond decided to do since they were buddies. Seemed like we ended up offering her a spot so we could for sure get Cooper. We see how that all worked out.

 

[Amb3096]

Agree to disagree. Her numbers were pretty consistent across the season and actually all of them, except her 3 point shot, improved in conference play compared to non-conference play. The rise in the level of competition was not on the court. It was on the sideline. Holly is the problem and I'm not here for people blaming Evina or claiming she's not good. If you notice, the only games we won in SEC play were against teams with a mediocre coach. Gary Blair, Dawn Staley, Mike Neighbors, Kristy Curry, Matthew Mitchell and Vic Schaefer could beat Holly blindfolded and with half their roster.

As for Diamond, I believe a lot of Tea Cooper's decision hinged on what Diamond decided to do since they were buddies. Seemed like we ended up offering her a spot so we could for sure get Cooper. We see how that all worked out.

Here is the breakdown of Evina's OOC and Conference stats:

OOC (30 games):
15.2 ppg, 42.5%FG, 38.9%3FG, 72.4%FT, 3.6 rpg, 154 assts (5.1 apg), 95 to (3.2 tpg), 1.62 ATO, 1.6 spg

SEC Only (15 games):
13.9 ppg, 36.7%FG, 33.3%3FG, 78.2%FT, 3.7 rpg, 81 assts (5.4 apg), 42 to (2.8 tpg), 1.92 ATO, 1.7 spg

She has a huge drop in her FG% and 3FG% from non-conference to conference, with a modest decrease in scoring. Surprisingly, her ATO improved. Her conference #'s are very comparable to her freshman year numbers, save her FT% which must've been an anomaly last year. Even this year, she started as an awful FT shooter, then all of a sudden became better and barely missed.

Once the quality of the opponent (players and coaching) improved, then there was no relief from the sideline and she channeled her inner Meighan Simmons, which is probably why she had a nose dive in her overall FG%.

 

[VolBall09]

Here is the breakdown of Evina's OOC and Conference stats:

OOC (30 games):
15.2 ppg, 42.5%FG, 38.9%3FG, 72.4%FT, 3.6 rpg, 154 assts (5.1 apg), 95 to (3.2 tpg), 1.62 ATO, 1.6 spg

SEC Only (15 games):
13.9 ppg, 36.7%FG, 33.3%3FG, 78.2%FT, 3.7 rpg, 81 assts (5.4 apg), 42 to (2.8 tpg), 1.92 ATO, 1.7 spg

She has a huge drop in her FG% and 3FG% from non-conference to conference, with a modest decrease in scoring. Surprisingly, her ATO improved. Her conference #'s are very comparable to her freshman year numbers, save her FT% which must've been an anomaly last year. Even this year, she started as an awful FT shooter, then all of a sudden became better and barely missed.

Once the quality of the opponent (players and coaching) improved, then there was no relief from the sideline and she channeled her inner Meighan Simmons, which is probably why she had a nose dive in her overall FG%.

Shooting % took a nose dive because of her knee, she was getting no lift on her shot and no elevation on her floater/jumper in the lane. The rest of it all improved.

Only thing that stayed the same from a season ago is Holly's poor coaching ability. I'm done blaming the players and claiming they must have all been over rated.

 

[madtownvol]

Here is the breakdown of Evina's OOC and Conference stats:

OOC (30 games):
15.2 ppg, 42.5%FG, 38.9%3FG, 72.4%FT, 3.6 rpg, 154 assts (5.1 apg), 95 to (3.2 tpg), 1.62 ATO, 1.6 spg

SEC Only (15 games):
13.9 ppg, 36.7%FG, 33.3%3FG, 78.2%FT, 3.7 rpg, 81 assts (5.4 apg), 42 to (2.8 tpg), 1.92 ATO, 1.7 spg

She has a huge drop in her FG% and 3FG% from non-conference to conference, with a modest decrease in scoring. Surprisingly, her ATO improved. Her conference #'s are very comparable to her freshman year numbers, save her FT% which must've been an anomaly last year. Even this year, she started as an awful FT shooter, then all of a sudden became better and barely missed.

Once the quality of the opponent (players and coaching) improved, then there was no relief from the sideline and she channeled her inner Meighan Simmons, which is probably why she had a nose dive in her overall FG%.

But Evina was not playing in a vacuum. Against better competition, the LVs had fewer opportunities to score in transition which is the only condition when the offense works pretty well. We all know that the half court sets are substandard and that leads a PG trying to squeeze blood from a turnip.

In many situations, she had to force the issue to try to make a play.

I agree VolBall09 that her knee problem toward the end of the season had a negative impact on her shooting. she had a similar issue arise in her freshman year as well. Her recurrent knee problem is a potential cause for concern.

 

[djtee]

Shooting % took a nose dive because of her knee, she was getting no lift on her shot and no elevation on her floater/jumper in the lane. The rest of it all improved.

Only thing that stayed the same from a season ago is Holly's poor coaching ability. I'm done blaming the players and claiming they must have all been over rated.

You make a good point about her knee problem, I`m with you on blaming Holly for this sole reason of not moving Westbrook to the SG and recruiting a pg that can break you down off dribble,Handle the ball , defend. and shoot the three. To me Tenn only had one pg that could do it and that is Shannon Bobbitt she only stood at 5-2 but was a nightmare for coaches on both ends of the floor. I`m not comparing Westbrook to Bobbitt just wanted to throw my opinion on our needs for the backcourt.

 

[glv98]

Totally agree Evina did not play in a vacumn and also that her lack of sufficient improvement is not her fault, but that of the teachers/coaches the University promised to provide to improve her. Obviously, both she and Davis are diamonds (no pun intended) in the rough begging to be polished. They're certainly not the first to have underachieved but hopefully they'll be among the last.

 

[madtownvol]

You make a good point about her knee problem, I`m with you on blaming Holly for this sole reason of not moving Westbrook to the SG and recruiting a pg that can break you down off dribble,Handle the ball , defend. and shoot the three. To me Tenn only had one pg that could do it and that is Shannon Bobbitt she only stood at 5-2 but was a nightmare for coaches on both ends of the floor. I`m not comparing Westbrook to Bobbitt just wanted to throw my opinion on our needs for the backcourt.

Hayes had the potential to be that kind of point guard.