Are we back ?

#76
#76
sjt18 said:
I think you have the cart before the horse. I think those few programs are much more likely to have highly ranked classes because they've proven then can find and develop great talent and then win at a high level with them.
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Georgia has had a top 3 class for the last 7 years. That has been the reason for them gradually distancing themselves. Alabama has been in the top five of the recruiting rankings perennially, finishing number one several times. They are our direct competition, both SEC-wise, and nationally. They were recruiting well before they won big, and then they've continued on recruiting at the highest levels once they began to win big. It is easy to see the rankings, the onfield results & the NFL Draft. For Tennessee, the issue is stepping up to that level of raw talent while competing against and winning against them. Our coach obviously recognizes this, and is clearly going after it. So far, his record with those two is 1-3. Talent has had a lot to do with that. As we get better talent we will likely win more games against them.
 
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#79
#79
ScornedPapaVol said:
Georgia has had a top 3 class for the last 7 years. That has been the reason for them gradually distancing themselves. Alabama has been in the top five of the recruiting rankings perennially, finishing number one several times. They are our direct competition, both SEC-wise, and nationally. They were recruiting well before they won big, and then they've continued on recruiting at the highest levels once they began to win big. It is easy to see the rankings, the onfield results & the NFL Draft. For Tennessee, the issue is stepping up to that level of raw talent while competing against and winning against them. Our coach obviously recognizes this, and is clearly going after it. So far, his record with those two is 1-3. Talent has had a lot to do with that. As we get better talent we will likely win more games against them.
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You still have the cart pulling the horse. I have never denied that it takes talent to win. Heupel at least to a significant degree has demonstrated that coaching and development can compensate for a lot when it comes to pure, raw talent.

My point and it is demonstrated by the NFL draft and on-field results is that there are enough players who were worthy of 4/5* who were rated 3* for a coach to get talent with classes that the recruiting sites don't rank in the top 5. You can probably make a pretty good argument that Clemson's talent has declined a bit since they started getting love from the recruiting sites. Neither Smart nor Saban need the affirmation of recruiting sites. Ranking their players higher is a pretty good bet by the recruiting sites though.

But two or 3 or 5 programs don't prove the accuracy of the recruiting sites. After 3 or 4 teams, the recruiting rankings become less accurate for proving winners. After the 5* rated players, the individual rankings become a lot more iffy.

UT beat three of the top 8 most talented teams in the country according to 247. According to that ranking, UT should not have beaten those teams... much less dominated them like they did Clemson and LSU. They rate Bama the most talented team by a fairly significant amount.

As for the 1-3 record... seriously? Based on results from all 4 games, he can compete with them with much less than "top 5" talent. He needs more depth and talent at some positions.
 
#80
#80
jasonvol18 said:
No, we are absolutely not back yet. Definately trending in that direction though. We have to beat GA, beat Ala and Fla more than once. Plus we need to get to and win the SEC Champ Game. Lasty, we gotta continue recruiting and landing top 5-10 Classes.
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Everyone loves talking playoffs and Natties, but I really want the SEC title first. Being champion of the best league in CFB would be massive by itself. It still means something to me!
 
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#82
#82
I think we're still 1-2 really solid classes from being where we need to be.
 
#84
#84
sjt18 said:
You still have the cart pulling the horse. I have never denied that it takes talent to win. Heupel at least to a significant degree has demonstrated that coaching and development can compensate for a lot when it comes to pure, raw talent.

My point and it is demonstrated by the NFL draft and on-field results is that there are enough players who were worthy of 4/5* who were rated 3* for a coach to get talent with classes that the recruiting sites don't rank in the top 5. You can probably make a pretty good argument that Clemson's talent has declined a bit since they started getting love from the recruiting sites. Neither Smart nor Saban need the affirmation of recruiting sites. Ranking their players higher is a pretty good bet by the recruiting sites though.

But two or 3 or 5 programs don't prove the accuracy of the recruiting sites. After 3 or 4 teams, the recruiting rankings become less accurate for proving winners. After the 5* rated players, the individual rankings become a lot more iffy.

UT beat three of the top 8 most talented teams in the country according to 247. According to that ranking, UT should not have beaten those teams... much less dominated them like they did Clemson and LSU. They rate Bama the most talented team by a fairly significant amount.

As for the 1-3 record... seriously? Based on results from all 4 games, he can compete with them with much less than "top 5" talent. He needs more depth and talent at some positions.
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No team has recently won the SEC without top level talent. I don't recall a non-talented team winning the playoff either. We are 0-2 against UGA. And we are 1-1 against Bama. That's 1-3 sir. And the difference is the players. Which we are addressing currently in recruiting. Call that any kind of horse and carriage combination that makes you feel better.
 
#85
#85
ScornedPapaVol said:
No team has recently won the SEC without top level talent. I don't recall a non-talented team winning the playoff either. We are 0-2 against UGA. And we are 1-1 against Bama. That's 1-3 sir. And the difference is the players. Which we are addressing currently in recruiting. Call that any kind of horse and carriage combination that makes you feel better.
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Nowhere have I said you could win without talent. You CAN win without signing top 5 classes as evaluated by the recruiting sites. The reason is simple. They're not accurate enough to say a #10 class shouldn't be the #2 class.

It is more than a little premature in Heupel's tenure to start talking about his record vs 2 of the nations 3 best programs.
 
#86
#86
A look at our AD....................we're back!

A look at our facilites, alumni, donations and fans...............we're back!

A look at our Coaches..................we're back!

A look at our O..............we're back!

A look at our D................we're not back.
 
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#87
#87
sjt18 said:
You still have the cart pulling the horse. I have never denied that it takes talent to win. Heupel at least to a significant degree has demonstrated that coaching and development can compensate for a lot when it comes to pure, raw talent.

My point and it is demonstrated by the NFL draft and on-field results is that there are enough players who were worthy of 4/5* who were rated 3* for a coach to get talent with classes that the recruiting sites don't rank in the top 5. You can probably make a pretty good argument that Clemson's talent has declined a bit since they started getting love from the recruiting sites. Neither Smart nor Saban need the affirmation of recruiting sites. Ranking their players higher is a pretty good bet by the recruiting sites though.

But two or 3 or 5 programs don't prove the accuracy of the recruiting sites. After 3 or 4 teams, the recruiting rankings become less accurate for proving winners. After the 5* rated players, the individual rankings become a lot more iffy.

UT beat three of the top 8 most talented teams in the country according to 247. According to that ranking, UT should not have beaten those teams... much less dominated them like they did Clemson and LSU. They rate Bama the most talented team by a fairly significant amount.

As for the 1-3 record... seriously? Based on results from all 4 games, he can compete with them with much less than "top 5" talent. He needs more depth and talent at some positions.
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And it appears that he is beginning to attract the attention of many higher ranked players. The next two years should give a clue as to how the future will look on Rocky Top. I don't think we are "back". but I do think are are on the highway and picking up seed.
 
#88
#88
ScornedPapaVol said:
Georgia has had a top 3 class for the last 7 years. That has been the reason for them gradually distancing themselves. Alabama has been in the top five of the recruiting rankings perennially, finishing number one several times. They are our direct competition, both SEC-wise, and nationally. They were recruiting well before they won big, and then they've continued on recruiting at the highest levels once they began to win big. It is easy to see the rankings, the onfield results & the NFL Draft. For Tennessee, the issue is stepping up to that level of raw talent while competing against and winning against them. Our coach obviously recognizes this, and is clearly going after it. So far, his record with those two is 1-3. Talent has had a lot to do with that. As we get better talent we will likely win more games against them.
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Agree completely with that sentence. The problem is that way too many equate that statement with necessarily getting a top 5 ranking or whatever from the recruiting sites.

You need talent. You need schemes that give players a chance to succeed. You need solid in game coaching. You MUST have great player development. But that would be true if the recruiting sites did not exist. Bama and UGA would just as surely find and sign talented players if those sites did not exist. They aren't talented because the recruiting sites approved of their recruits. The sites by and large take notice of who those programs prioritize and rate them higher. The rankings become a self-fulfilling prophecy. There's a form of "circular reasoning" that goes on with that handful of programs that are always in the top 5.
 
#89
#89
VOLINVONORE said:
And it appears that he is beginning to attract the attention of many higher ranked players. The next two years should give a clue as to how the future will look on Rocky Top. I don't think we are "back". but I do think are are on the highway and picking up seed.
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We will soon see when players like Telander and Slaughter begin to play whether UT is getting talent or not. Either the staff knows talent and can find talent with or without the stamp of approval from the recruiting sites... or to be perfectly honest... they'll fail. They're not going to go nose to nose with Bama and UGA and win enough of those battles to rise to the top level of competition. They will either find, sign, and develop talent... likely while not immediately having great influence with the recruiting rankings... or they won't.
 
#90
#90
sjt18 said:
We will soon see when players like Telander and Slaughter begin to play whether UT is getting talent or not. Either the staff knows talent and can find talent with or without the stamp of approval from the recruiting sites... or to be perfectly honest... they'll fail. They're not going to go nose to nose with Bama and UGA and win enough of those battles to rise to the top level of competition. They will either find, sign, and develop talent... likely while not immediately having great influence with the recruiting rankings... or they won't.
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Not denying that, but I am encouraged with the increased interest expressed by more talented high school players in Tennessee football. It is a matter of being able to sign an increased number of those players and being able to develop players who could become very good players in their Junior and senior years of college,
 
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#91
#91
VOLINVONORE said:
Not denying that, but I am encouraged with the increased interest expressed by more talented high school players in Tennessee football. It is a matter of being able to sign an increased number of those players and being able to develop players who could become very good players in their Junior and senior years of college,
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Here's what I'm trying to say. Saban, Day, Swinney, and Smart have earned credibility. The players they pursue as long as they check the "athlete" boxes are safe bets for the recruiting sites to call 4/5* players. The recruiting "analysts" working for those sites know that a high % of those players will be talented, developed well, and successful. It just makes sense for them business wise also to favor the recruits of fanbases with lots of fan energy. IMHO, that has given UT quite a few overrated players over the last several years.

When those programs pursue a player and others do as well... then that's just more confirmation.

However, to enter that realm a program has to have success finding guys who will become great players that don't get all that "love". If Heupel starts showing he can do that... then the recruiting sites will start giving a tip of their hats to the recruits Heupel prioritizes.

There are several hundred HS players each year that check all the boxes from a physical standpoint to be 4/5*. Many have successful HS careers. Many will be rated 3* if they get FBS offers. Some won't. Then 430 +/- get the blue chip rating. The "right" coach for a program like UT to rise into the top tier will find a lot of those underrated 3* and will avoid a lot of the overrated 4/5*. Success will be on gameday rather than NSD.
 
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#94
#94
Far as I'm concerned we are back. We were ranked #1 for a hot minute last season and all the puzzle pieces are falling into place. Other teams are marking their games with us on their calendar and Neyland is rocking on Saturdays.
 
#96
#96
WoodsmanVol said:
No. We're not back yet. Our recruiting is just moderate currently. We still don't have a real Tennessee defense right now. The UT is capable of making some noise, sure, but we aren't what we once were, we aren't what many of our, understandably, giddy fans think we are. We're not even what we're going to be, either. But we're getting there, and soon.

--Apologies to Satchel Paige.
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11-2
 
#98
#98
We are back to being competitive at the highest levels, and I think it’s only a matter of time we win the East and sec. I think we legitimately compete for it this year. Winning the East may be the toughest journey of all but we will get it in the next few years I believe. And I definitely think we got great shot at both the East and Sec the next 2-3 years and the playoffs are no doubt in our future if we continue to improve and recruit even better. We got a great staff that is committed to Tennessee being at the top of college football and among the top teams year in and year out. GBO!
 
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#100
#100
BigVol88 said:
Everyone loves talking playoffs and Natties, but I really want the SEC title first. Being champion of the best league in CFB would be massive by itself. It still means something to me!
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The bottom line is though, if you are good enough to win our league, you are good enough to win the Natty.
 
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