Areas where we are upgrading at QB with Milton

[FLVOL_79]

80 yard bombs..thats what we get. Looking forward to it. Force defenses to play prevent win all the time.

 

[onevol74]

What I see in Milton is the defense has to cover deeper allowing the run game and intermediate game to open up more. And God be with you if you want your safeties to play tight and up close to the line. We now have receivers who can run past you or thru you. Pick your poison.

 

[TMvol10]

Imo Hendon has better pocket presence than Milton. Granted, this is primarily based on what I saw from Milton in year one. Hendon’s timing in this offense was so good. Milton stands a little flat footed and actually doesn’t feel the pocket well. I also think he locks into guys more so than Hendon did. Again, this is just my opinion and I hope I’m wrong.

 

[dirytkirby]

Pocket presence leans to Hooker - hands down (IMO). We only have 2 games of Joe vs real competition. Candy does not count and we ran the ball down their throats - Pittsburg and Clemson. The 4 scoring drives / passing was a thing of beauty - the other drives -
1st drive - sacked in 3rd and 6 - punt
2nd drive - Pass to Bru for 6
3rd drive - 3/out
4th drive - sack, 3/out
5th drive - Bomb to squirrel - Joe 4/4 - give him 6
6th drive - 3/out
7th drive - sack on 3rd down 4/out
8th drive - 3/out
9th drive - sacked on 3rd and 21
10th - Wright 3 runs for 56 yards, TD pass to Squirrel
11th - Bomb to Keyton - give him 6
12 - run clock
no complaints about winning - by any stretch- but Joe was hit or miss - and he took sacks to kill 3 of the 7 makable 3 downs. Hooker often broke the pocket, made plays with his feet, extended plays. Joe has athletic ability and arm strength as an advantage- other than that he absolutely has to prove the intangibles to me to say he’s better than Hendon - I really hope he does! If he’s better then Hendon… we do have a shot at the Mutts

 

[BruisedOrange]

I've wondered why we don't see our QBs throwing out of bounds to avoid a sack. I'm guessing it's due to either statistics or philosophy.

You guys who watch a lot of other games... is that a trend, compared to 10-15 years ago?

 

[RDU VOL#14]

Hooker 100% does not have a better pocket presence than Milton. Really not close.

Actually it is close. There were multiple times last year where the play was dead and the pocket collapses and somehow Hooker escaped or stood in there and made a throw. Everyone talks about Keyton’s catch in that Florida game, the play of that drive was Hooker side step to his left and throws a dart to Princeton Fant on 3rd and long. If he takes a sack we’re punting and the Gators could’ve been leading 21-10 at half. That same game the protection breaks down and avoids the sack and busts a big run. Honestly, i tend to think Milton holds on to the ball too long.

 

[Hank Bukowski]

Losing Hooker is a blow to the team, no matter which way you spin it. It would be a blow to any team, he was that good. And while Bazooka Joe has some big shoes to fill, it's worth noting the areas that I actually think he could be an upgrade.

Feel free to disagree obviously, but this is what I've observed:

1) Arm strength: I mean this one is kind of a gimme. No one in football at any level can air it out like Joe.

2) Pocket presence (presents ): Hooker wasn't bad in the pocket by any means, but when the pocket began to collapse he did start to shuffle and bit and try to create space. Usually this would end up in a sack. One thing I have to give Joe credit for, he stands in a collapsing pocket and trusts the line to protect him. Will this cause a few extra turnovers in the season? Probably, yeah. But it should result in far less sacks since Joe will give himself more opportunities to get rid of the ball if he stands strong in the pocket, which he typically does.

3) Straight line runner: Hooker's escapability was definitely an underrated aspect of how well he moved, and Joe isn't going to have that. But I do think Joe is actually a better straight line runner. I don't know the 40 times, but Joe is deceptively fast when he starts going downhill. It wouldn't surprise me if he is actually faster than Hooker in a foot race.

4) Sheer size: Granted we haven't seen Joe use this to his potential, but if he can develop an "If I can't go around you, I'm going through you" mentality, he's going to be really good at picking up some extra yards that wouldn't otherwise be there on QB carries/scrambles. Joe is an absolute tank.

It's hard to put a positive spin on losing a talent like Hooker, but I think if utilized correctly, we're actually going to be pleasantly surprised by some of the new advantages Joe brings to the offense.

Um, if you take a minute and read this again, you might see how some of us out here might take issue (and a little umbrage) with what you say in nos. 2 and 3. Your points seem a bit contradictory.

You say “Hooker wasn't bad in the pocket by any means, but when the pocket began to collapse he did start to shuffle and bit and try to create space. Usually this would end up in a sack.” Uh…well…maybe we were watching two different quarterbacks last season. “Usually this would end up in a sack?” Are you kidding me? Hooker wasn’t quite Josh Dobbs as a runner but he wasn’t far behind. His “escapability” and not only avoiding sacks but running for some daylight was part of his game. He could and did juke a lot of people. How many broken plays, missed assignments, collapsed pockets did he turn into positive yardage for us with his legs? How many yards rushing did he have last year? How many touchdowns did he score with his legs? “Usually,” Hooker got yards with his legs…on designed runs for him and on broken plays. Yes, he got sacked a few times too many but sacks were without question the exception rather than the rule. The dude made plays and kept drives alive for us with his legs all season long. That’s the Hooker I saw.

You may have him confused with Big Joe’s attempts to run this far. We all want him to take off and run through and over people. But, based on what we’ve seen this far, he hasn’t quite worked that out yet. I believe our coaches want him to run more as well. He surely doesn’t seem to have Hooker’s “escapability” yet and he may never will.

My eyes have seen Joe hold the ball and take a sack in situations that I know Hendon would have escaped. Because he’s simply a better scrambler and open field runner.

Other than these trifles, you make good points.

 

[DougVol]

Do not agree with No. 2 or 3; Milton was sacked four times in the Orange Bowl, but for what ever reason Hooker seemed to fumble more than Milton. Hooker is faster than Milton; give me a break, but I liked the way Milton ran the ball in the Orange bowl on designed runs. Would love to see him run it some on 3rd and short.

Would love to see him run like KJ Jefferson.

 

[aRmo]

Imo Hendon has better pocket presence than Milton. Granted, this is primarily based on what I saw from Milton in year one. Hendon’s timing in this offense was so good. Milton stands a little flat footed and actually doesn’t feel the pocket well. I also think he locks into guys more so than Hendon did. Again, this is just my opinion and I hope I’m wrong.

I think when Cedric was in last year, Hendon only looked for him ALOT. it was really obvious. Once Ced went down this offense took off.

 

[Midas]

Speed:
Google searches for 40 time list Hooker and Milton both in the 4.7-4.8 range. Call it even for both.

Shiftiness and rushing quality:
Hooker has some twitch in his runs. Kind of a cross between Dobbs and crazy-legs John Kelly.
It might just be me, but his twitches when running looked a bit awkward and not under control at times, and didn't fake out good defenders at times.
With his downfield spin-moves, I was always holding my breath that someone was going to clock him hard coming out of his spin.

Milton was an ineffective soft runner in his early years, but it looks like the soft running has been coached out of him.
In the past year he looked like an effective and good rusher. Plus the strength to run through people if needed and to administer a strong stiff arm.
Milton may not be as shifty, but has good enough moves to be effective downfield.

Rushing yards:
Hooker rushed for 616 yds and 430 yds his two years of starting for the Vols.
Wouldn't be surprised at all to see Milton rush for 400-600 yds this year.

Accuracy:
Hooker's accuracy was very good.
Milton's touch and accuracy stunk early on, but had 67.9% completion vs Clemson, and reports from the 2023 fall practice are that his accuracy and touch are extremely good (on air, albeit).

Mental:
Hooker was always calm, focused and seemed to have things in control.
Looks like Milton is hopefully improving in this area.

If Milton keeps the mental game in check and keeps the interception count low, I think he could have as big of a year or bigger than Hooker last year.

We are in pretty good QB hands this year.

Neither of them are 4.8 guys. Matt Ryan ran a 4.8 at the combine…They seem like they are in the 4.6-4.7 range. Those are just estimates online.

 

[titansvolsfaninga]

Heupel's situation is different this year also. Last year, if/when something happened to Hooker, he had Milton, with several years of D1 experience, as a backup. This year, if Joe goes down, we have a true freshman. Heupel could send Hooker and worry a little less.

Sure, he's a great true freshman, a highly rated QB, but he's a freshman. I think Nico will be amazing but I don't want him in the fire too early and I doubt Heupel does either. I think we'll see a few designated QB runs to keep teams honest but I don't look for Heupel to tempt fate.

I think Gaston Moore could step in and play if Nico isn't ready.

 

[titansvolsfaninga]

I think when Cedric was in last year, Hendon only looked for him ALOT. it was really obvious. Once Ced went down this offense took off.

I think Milton has that same chemistry with Squirrel. He looks for him a lot too.

 

[savannahfan]

Agreed with all points. I’d add that in a short sample size, he spreads the ball around more and is less likely to zero in on one target. Let’s see how that plays out over an entire season. What Hooker was peerless at was keeping everything in front of him and decision making during tight situations. That’s the burden for Joe.

This is a really big plus for Hooker.......

 

[VOLINVONORE]

No need to get into this discussion until we see the product on the field after the first 4-5 games. By they, we will know what we have. I hope we are undefeated and going full blast ahead

 

[BDP!]

My opinion is we'll miss Hookers legs more than his arm.

 

[Prayivm3rcy]

Milton will have 3 years under development in Heupel's system. That may be the biggest advantage.

 

[mrmax86]

I've wondered why we don't see our QBs throwing out of bounds to avoid a sack. I'm guessing it's due to either statistics or philosophy.

You guys who watch a lot of other games... is that a trend, compared to 10-15 years ago?

I'm sure there's some sort of statistical advantage to not doing that in most situations, kind of like never punting...short term issues potentially, but over the long term the benefit is there. I have nothing to back this up, just educated guessing.

 

[mrmax86]

When hooker escaped the pocket he was dead set on running the football. When Joe escapes he keeps his eyes down field. But i agree with most points. I think Joe is as fast as hooker, idk about faster. But where he lacks in elusiveness he makes up for in lowing his shoulder. The dude is an absolute load to bring down. Gonna be a fun season guys.

There were a couple times with Hooker where he'd juke himself INTO a tackle. It will be interesting to see if Joe can do better.

 

[KTrain]

Losing Hooker is a blow to the team, no matter which way you spin it. It would be a blow to any team, he was that good. And while Bazooka Joe has some big shoes to fill, it's worth noting the areas that I actually think he could be an upgrade.

Feel free to disagree obviously, but this is what I've observed:

1) Arm strength: I mean this one is kind of a gimme. No one in football at any level can air it out like Joe.

2) Pocket presence (presents ): Hooker wasn't bad in the pocket by any means, but when the pocket began to collapse he did start to shuffle and bit and try to create space. Usually this would end up in a sack. One thing I have to give Joe credit for, he stands in a collapsing pocket and trusts the line to protect him. Will this cause a few extra turnovers in the season? Probably, yeah. But it should result in far less sacks since Joe will give himself more opportunities to get rid of the ball if he stands strong in the pocket, which he typically does.

3) Straight line runner: Hooker's escapability was definitely an underrated aspect of how well he moved, and Joe isn't going to have that. But I do think Joe is actually a better straight line runner. I don't know the 40 times, but Joe is deceptively fast when he starts going downhill. It wouldn't surprise me if he is actually faster than Hooker in a foot race.

4) Sheer size: Granted we haven't seen Joe use this to his potential, but if he can develop an "If I can't go around you, I'm going through you" mentality, he's going to be really good at picking up some extra yards that wouldn't otherwise be there on QB carries/scrambles. Joe is an absolute tank.


It's hard to put a positive spin on losing a talent like Hooker, but I think if utilized correctly, we're actually going to be pleasantly surprised by some of the new advantages Joe brings to the offense.

1. Agree
2. Hooker wasn't good in pocket 1 game IMO vs UGA but crowd noise and silent count gave UGA D-Line a jump as they started timing their starts, looked to be offside 2 or 3 times and were in Backfield way to fast. Other than that game thought he was very good. Joe stands too flat footed in the pocket hopefully that has changed, he does not do any nuanced slide movements that great QBs do to get that one extra instant of tenth of second. JMO
3. I bet you are right in a 40 but I bet in a 10 yard dash Hooker wins every time. QBs rarely start out in the open field for a run. There has to be a juke or scramble first, so I still give the edge to Hooker, once Joe gets going those long strides start kicking in.
4. I agree on this one with the caveat, in 2021 when Joe ran up the middle he would kind of stop and ball up to take the impact rather than bringing the blow for the extra yard. I will say last year 2022, I did not see him cower and ball up for the hit. He looked much better on his runs, hopefully this year he takes the next step, this could be like Tebow on 3rd or 4th & 1 you knew he was is getting the ball but couldn't hold him to that 1 yard.

 

[volinexile17]

Also disagree with 2/3. Milton hasn’t shown the ability to regularly run the football. Hooker ran for 430 yards in 11 games last year. Milton hasn’t run for 400 yards in his entire career.

Hooker was also great pre-snap then making good quick decisions after the snap. He had two bad games where he looked rattled in the pocket: UGA and SC. Other than that, he was fantastic. In a small sample size, Milton has not looked all that great in the pocket imo. He just stands there. That’s not pocket presence. He’s just huge.

I’m hopeful that Milton’s difficulties were from lack of familiarity with the offense. He certainly looked better against Clemson. But he’s gotta be better pre-snap and then making decisions with the ball afterward so the offense is consistent.

 

[WillisWG]

ESPN: Joe Milton is No. 1 most important player in playoff race (on3.com)

 

[OrangeTsar]

Hooker is/was a better scrambler and had really good pocket presence (better than Milton IMHO). He’s also a more accurate passer.

I think alot if the media get too caught up on arm strength when accuracy is more important.

Milton may be better on these this year - but the sample size doesn’t show us that yet. All we have from last year is one great game against Clemson and then a lot of mop-up duty.

Yup, that sixth sense of WHEN to scramble was a gift that Hendon had in abundance

 

[Vol423]

ESPN: Joe Milton is No. 1 most important player in playoff race (on3.com)

That is a very accurate assessment IMO.

 

[mrmax86]

Milton will have 3 years under development in Heupel's system. That may be the biggest advantage.

I also agree that number of years in the system (plus, obviously, talent) are the biggest indicators of QB success in the Heupel offense. I will attempt to compare Hooker and Milton in terms of relevant experience (starter vs backup vs injured) in 4 major categories:

1. Spring Camp (March-May)
2. Fall Camp (June-August)
3. Regular Season (September-November)
4. Post Season (December-February)

Bear with me while I work this out:

• Milton/Hooker competing for starting job before 2021 season (Spring/Fall). Milton started 2 games, then Hooker took over job, so Hooker got in-season/post-season starter reps.
• Hooker was the starter for the whole off-season before 2022 season (Spring/Fall) and the starter for all but 1 game. Milton got 1 game and post-season work.
• Milton has been the starter for the whole off-season before the 2023 season (Spring/Fall) and hopefully the starter all year.

So, Heupel has been effectively coaching for 10 periods thus far, throwing away the first couple months as waste. Below I will track who was starter or backup or injured for each period. For starter reps, I give 2 points, For backup reps, I give 1 point. If you're injured, 0 points (though something can be said for "mental" reps). In-season in-game reps give bonus points since they're the best way to learn.

• 2021 Spring Camp (Hendon 100%, Joe transferred in late April)
  • Hooker 1.5 pts
  • Milton 0.5 pts
• 2021 Fall Camp (Competition)
  • Hooker 1.5 pts
  • Milton 1.5 pts
• 2021 Regular Season (Milton 17% Starter, Hooker 83% Starter)
  • Hooker 2.66 pts
  • Milton 1.34 pts
• 2021 Post Season (Hooker)
  • Hooker 2 pts
  • Milton 1 pt
• 2022 Spring Camp
  • Hooker 2 pts
  • Milton 1 pt
• 2022 Fall Camp
  • Hooker 2 pts
  • Milton 1 pt
• 2022 Regular Season (Hooker 93% starter, Milton 7% starter)
  • Hooker 2.79 pts
  • Milton 1.14 pts
• 2022 Post Season (Milton)
  • Milton 2 pts
• 2023 Spring Camp
  • Milton 2 pts
• 2023 Fall Camp
  • Milton 2 pts

SO, Hendon Hooker racked up 14.45 pts of experience, by my metrics. Does Milton have as much in-game experience? No. Does he have a crap ton of experience overall? Yes. My metrics say he's had 13.48 points. His time studying and perfecting his art as a backup to one of the best QBs we've ever had at UT, combined with (almost) a year more experience in Heupel's system as Hendon did, this should work out very well for him, and UT.

 

[GUNTERSVOL]

Some good points. I think part of what Hendon did that really made the offense go was he was a dynamic runner in addition to having a nice touch on the ball. In the games that Joe's been able to play, it just doesn't seem to be part of his game to take off or scramble much and while his touch on the ball has improved, I think Hendon was a little better in that department. Now maybe the OL will be strong enough that Joe won't have to take off.

I THINK folks have put too much value on his PAST reps in evaluating the value add he has as a runner. Risk/reward is what it is and I BET his instructions when being inserted as the backup late in games was don’t get hurt trying to be a hero.

THEN when HH went down and he was the only game in town I bet he was also limited to exposing himself to only when contact would extend a series. PROBABLY why he looked more patient in the pocket than HH and threw some away rather than man up to pick up non impactful yards.

Back to starter with a complete knowledge of the playbook and a P5 level backup we shall get to see the complete QB, whatever that is. Including sneaks and powering for important yardage after bailing from the pocket or on planned roll outs on option plays.