Attacking the 3/3/5 defense

#26
#26
Oline is bad. Can they improve? Maybe. Can they improve a lot at this point? Very unlikely. We pinned our hopes on Heard . . . And thus far he looks very pedestrian. UT has a good center . . . After that . . . We are not very good. The oline will keep this team from being an 11-1 or 10-2 team.

7-5 is possible (depending on what happens with the UF game). 9-3 is the ceiling.
 
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#30
#30
It just didn’t look like we ever made any adjustments to what Arkansas was doing on defense. I mean, Heupel is a very good offensive mind. Did he not have anything different up his sleeve?
It is great to have a fantastic defense; but that doesn’t mean you can rely on it to keep the other team out of the endzone late in the game; especially after how long they were on that field in the first half.
You gotta take the fight to THEM all 60 minutes. Not Just Hope you can Coast over the finish line
 
#31
#31
Wahoooo said:
I have read since the NC St game that the 3 man front always has given us fits, especially in the 3/3/5 Ark ran. Some said they even got in a 3/2 front and we check go a run but. Old not block the interior,

I don’t understand why we don’t have some type of counter option and attack the outside, to keep the defense line and LBs somewhat honest, at least make them take a second or two to try to read what is going on.

I know they want to protect Nico, but at some point and time they are going to have to make a defense respect the QB run and take a chance.
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Arkansas was in a 3-2-6 for most of the game. A dime. And we still kept trying to throw deep with 7 and 8 guys in pass coverage.

I have an idea! Go into a 12 personnel formation with two tight ends and run it down their throat.
 
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#32
#32
Volfan1000 said:
Heupel will need to open up the playbook against Florida and take some deep shots to open up the defense for the run game.
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Hopefully all the coaches look themselves in the eye. This loss not a huge deal if coaches make corrections. Effort/motivation has generally not been an issue w/ this team. Looking back now, there were signs that Ark was a pretty good team on matchups, but thought our DL would take over the game. Also, maybe we're a bit closer to that 9-3ish team most of preseason predictions had.

Disappointed really most that JH offense generally not showing out. Much like you see Bama fans wondering where their offense went the last six quarters, and the assumption was they took foot off the gas in second half of UGA game, but continued into Vandy game, the assumption for Vols was we went ultra conservative second half of OK game, which was generally true, but didn't show itself for ARK.
 
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#33
#33
Sampson had 1 reception against OU, none against Ark. He needs more receptions and not just shuttle passes. It is hard to do when he has to stay in and block all the time. If the offense doesn't look better against the Gators, they could be looking at 6-6 or 7-5.
 
#34
#34
wmcovol said:
Both OU & Ark controlled the Vol run game with 5 man box. That tells you everything about how bad the OL is & why WRs can’t get free running downfield.
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Yes this is not a new D concept. At some point Hype is going to have to realize the O-line cannot block this scheme and go a different offensive direction. Hopefully this weekend since UF will do the same.
 
#35
#35
barney said:
Arkansas was in a 3-2-6 for most of the game. A dime. And we still kept trying to throw deep with 7 and 8 guys in pass coverage.

I have an idea! Go into a 12 personnel formation with two tight ends and run it down their throat.
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Several 3 step drops in there, ball needs to come out quickly but, it didn't. Must fix that first.
 
#36
#36
As much as we like to say this was all O-line several of the sacks were from a free release by the TE, and two bad blocks from RB's.
Also, the 3-3-5 concept defense is nothing new, however in a road environment its almost impossible to be perfect.
The noise in Arkansas was louder than the other two road games, and the O-line against that defense goes into a man vs man protection.
sounds simple, but you don't know your guy until you line up and call it out. Had this game been in Knoxville we win due to minimal noise while on offense.
 
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#37
#37
Wahoooo said:
I have read since the NC St game that the 3 man front always has given us fits, especially in the 3/3/5 Ark ran. Some said they even got in a 3/2 front and we check go a run but. Old not block the interior,

I don’t understand why we don’t have some type of counter option and attack the outside, to keep the defense line and LBs somewhat honest, at least make them take a second or two to try to read what is going on.

I know they want to protect Nico, but at some point and time they are going to have to make a defense respect the QB run and take a chance.
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Thank you. This is what I was saying in several other posts the last 48 hours.

A speed option would be a killer. Or just an old fashion off tackle. Even our counters are designed to run up the middle with the pulling linemen kicking out the DL. That's not a bad play. We just need something on the edge of the box to keep the DL honest. I would love to see an off tackle run play where the H-back/TE goes in motion from the outside in, cracks the DE, and the Guard pulls around to take out the LB. I swear there's 10 yards there every time (especially with the DB's so far afield outside the numbers.

If they would add something at the edge of the box instead of straight up the middle, it would give D-front something extra to think about and open up the run game more. We also need to get Nico in some read option. It doesn't have to be a true RPO if he's not ready for that. But just give me read option where if the DE crashes he can keep it. With our WR splits there is so much green between the numbers and hashes that it hurts my brain that we only run it up the middle.
 
#39
#39
If we were to have trips to short side and a single WR outside the numbers near the sidleline to the wide side there's over 20 yards of space in between. If, and I know this is a big if, our tackles can actually seal off the DE, G takes the LB, there's again so much space there it would be nearly impossible to stop. Why isn't Coach H exploiting this space?
 
#41
#41
Remy said:
Hitting quick routes where the blitzers are coming from ends it. Quick passes to the TEs at the seam ends it as well. We have a 6'6" guy so it's not like he can't see them if they get turned around.
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BINGO
 
#42
#42
germantown902 said:
Someone mentioned it, but I’ll say it again. Go into 12 personnel and you attack the LBs with over the short to intermediate throws to your RBs and TEs. That should soften the middle and open up your vertical game to attack their Cover 3. Since UCF, Heupel seemingly has done nothing to understand the 3-3-5. Tulsa wore him out. This weekend went from a revenge game to a must win. Pressure has switched back to the home team in a big way.
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If Heupel has struggled with the 3-3-5 this much dating back to his time at UCF then we might be in trouble. Our scheme that we thought was indefensible in 2021-22 may not be that complicated to defend as we once thought…
 
#43
#43
I don’t think it’s so much the defensive scheme as it is countering the blitz. Sampson is the only back that can block, and he’s kind of small. The routes take way too long to develop and Nico is too busy running for his life to look down field at that point. This offense doesn’t run any hot routes, short slants, quick hitters, screens, or draws except for that stupid shovel pass to the back in the crowded line of scrimmage.

Until CJH expands to counter the blitz, this is the playbook to stop this “potent” offense. OU did it, Arky did it, you bet UF will do it.
 
#46
#46
Remy said:
Hitting quick routes where the blitzers are coming from ends it. Quick passes to the TEs at the seam ends it as well. We have a 6'6" guy so it's not like he can't see them if they get turned around.
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Exactly and it seemed like we had no hot routes to counter those blitzes all night. We have 3 really good TE's and I only saw Kitzelman targeted I think. Most of his were outside the numbers too. Ethan Davis and Staes are 2 great weapons that it seems like we don't know what to do with.
 
#47
#47
BigOrangeTrain said:
Why is it that every single year since time immemorial it seems that we always have OL issues? Remember how bad are OLs were from 2013-2022? But why? Every damn year what do we worry about? Depth in the OL and development in the OL.

Seems like it doesn’t matter who the coach is either. Except 2022. Seemed like it was good that year. I wish Heupel would spend some serious cash and try to get like Michigans OL coach or another big time OL coach.
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We were fantastic at offensive line in 2019. 3 of those guys would have started anywhere in the country. In fact, one of them started at Georgia before transferring. His younger brother is our best offensive player.
 
#48
#48
VOLINVONORE said:
The 3 3 5 defense is a defense which can revolve into almost any defense to stop a play as it starts. However, offenses can grain yards against it if you don’t miss blocks and don’t have penalties. Our execution on offense was just too inconsistent to maintain possession of the ball.Clean up the penalties and the missed blocks and we can win the rest of the games. It is up to the coaches and the players.
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Bingo, I’ve watched a lot of ball over the years. We have a really good defense (very very good), and an offense which if the mistakes are cleaned up, would change a lot of the current narrative. The false starts are drive killers, not to mention the illegal downfield and roughing types. I predict we play well this Saturday, ….. we’re due for another good game like in Norman (remember that one?). Go Vols !
 
#49
#49
snappervol said:
Bingo, I’ve watched a lot of ball over the years. We have a really good defense (very very good), and an offense which if the mistakes are cleaned up, would change a lot of the current narrative. The false starts are drive killers, not to mention the illegal downfield and roughing types. I predict we play well this Saturday, ….. we’re due for another good game like in Norman (remember that one?). Go Vols !
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If anything will make the coaches and players take stock of their of themselves, last Saturday’s game should do the trick..I also expect a better effort by both against Florida.
 
#50
#50
It’s less about the formation and more about philosophy. After all, everyone is going at least 5 DBs against UT, so the question is when does that tall, rangy player go from a rush end to a jack LB to a nickel. A team could be 3-3-5, 4-2-5, or 3-2-6 depending what you call that one player.

I think it’s better to focus on horizontal spacing instead of vertical when thinking how teams are defending UT. In a simple set up, UT might have 2 WRs wide left and 1WR and 1 TE wide right, with the QB and RB in the backfield. So far, teams have been defending that set up by putting 3 defenders on each side and only 5 in the box. If a TE motions in, one defender adds in to the box. Sometimes the extra defender from one side will add to the box late as a run defender, but a linebacker might drop out to replace.

This structure aims to give run reads and make UT block 5 with 5.
 
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