Barry and Eric declare martial law in Florida.

#26
#26
Who has deemed they are in violation. Fla could argue before a court that nine months of information requests on the save database amounts to obstruction by the doj. If the federal authorities refused to assist you would you sit idly knowing 53000 dead people are on the rolls? Court precedents in this area anyone? I'd like to read the briefs. No one is addressing the subject here. Is the 90 day window, it is not settled whether it applies here, more important than election integrity? ESP considering the close margins In that state. If 53000 likely rep voters were illegally on the rolls, what would be your suggested remedy? Remember eligible voters could sue claiming they were disenfranchised by dilution of their vote from illegally cast ballots
 
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#27
#27
Who has deemed they are in violation.

Section 5, for your reading pleasure:
SEC. 5. Whenever a State or political subdivision with respect to which the prohibitions set forth in section 4(a) are in effect shall enact or seek to administer any voting qualification or prerequisite to voting, or standard, practice, or procedure with respect to voting different from that in force or effect on November 1, 1964, such State or subdivision may institute an action in the United States District Court for the District of Columbia for a declaratory judgment that such qualification, prerequisite, standard, practice, or procedure does not have the purpose and will not have the effect of denying or abridging the right to vote on account of race or color, and unless and until the court enters such judgment no person shall be denied the right to vote for failure to comply with such qualification, prerequisite, standard, practice, or procedure: Provided, That such qualification, prerequisite, standard, practice, or procedure may be enforced without such proceeding if the qualification, prerequisite, standard, practice, or procedure has been submitted by the chief legal officer or other appropriate official of such State or subdivision to the Attorney General and the Attorney General has not interposed an objection within sixty days after such submission, except that neither the Attorney General's failure to object nor a declaratory judgment entered under this section shall bar a subsequent action to enjoin enforcement of such qualification, prerequisite, standard, practice, or procedure. Any action under this section shall be heard and determined by a court of three judges in accordance with the provisions of section 2284 of title 28 of the United States Code and any appeal shall lie to the Supreme Court.

They were in violation the moment they began the search and purge without first clearing it through D.C.

For a recent precedent, look no further than:
In a 2-to-1 decision, the United States Court of Appeals for the District of Columbia Circuit upheld a main provision of the Voting Rights Act on Friday, rejecting an Alabama county’s challenge to the landmark civil rights law. The provision requires governments with a history of discrimination to obtain approval from the Justice Department or from a federal court in Washington for changes in election procedures. It applies to all or parts of 16 states. The court said that Congress developed extensive evidence of continuing racial discrimination when it reauthorized the provision six years ago.

http://www.nytimes.com/2012/05/19/us/court-upholds-voting-rights-act-in-alabama-case.html

Again, you can argue the merit of the VRA; you can argue that Congress may be overstepping their bounds in reauthorizing the provision; however, the Executive is certainly not overstepping its bounds in enforcing the legislation.
 
#28
#28
Many are "precleared" so it is disputable whether they were in violation. Secondly your second point was in regards to changes in election procedures. It is against the law for illegal votes to be cast by non voters, so the ala decision by a liberal court means little in this case. Procedures were not changed, existing fla statutes are being enforced.

You still do not say whether it is right to have in eligible voters vote. Furthermore a literal reading of the doj opinion would afford greater protection to illegal voters than eligible voters. A socialist court can say otherwise, but it does not make it so. What again is your remedy in this conundrum?

FLORIDA REFUSES TO HALT VOTER REGISTRATION CLEANUP
By: John Hayward
6/7/2012 12:34 PM


4
The Florida Department of State has responded to the Justice Department’s demand that they terminate efforts to clean ineligible voters, particularly illegal aliens, from their voter registrations.* Florida Secretary of State Ken Detzner issued a statement saying the program would continue:

"As Florida’s Chief Election Officer, I am committed to ensuring the accuracy of Florida’s voter rolls and the integrity of our elections.* It is my duty to protect the right of all eligible voters who are able to participate in the process.* This is the security that voters and candidates expect from us in every election.* The Department will continue to act in a responsible and cautious manner when presented with credible information about potentially ineligible voters.* No one that has the right to vote has been denied the opportunity to cast a vote, and as the Secretary, it is my duty to ensure that remains the case.

“As to the specific concerns presented by the Department of Justice, we will be responding next week."

The Justice Department’s action has been widely misreported as an “order” which Florida is now “defying,” but in fact it was a letter of warning, not a legal injunction.* Florida Secretary of State Detzner wrote a letter of his own in response to the Civil Rights Division of the Justice Department on Wednesday… and he did not mince words, accusing DOJ of being the lawbreakers in this affair.* Detzner begins his response by saying his department “respectfully disagrees with DOJ’s position,” but his letter is noticeably less “respectful” by the time it reaches Page Four.

“No person has been or will be removed from the voter rolls without the fundamentals of due process,” Detzner asserts, citing the relevant Florida statutes in detail.* Biased journalists and assorted hysterics have portrayed Florida’s “purge” as some brutal, abrupt process in which helpless minority voters are ruthlessly disenfranchised, but in fact the 2,600 suspicious voters uncovered by Florida’s database search are notified via certified mail with return receipt requested.* They are given 30 days to respond with proof of eligibility, and can request a hearing if desired.

If this notice proves undeliverable (and remember, it’s certified mail sent to the address listed for a registered voter!) the Department of State publishes a notice “in a newspaper of general circulation in the county where the voter was last registered, with an additional 30-day opportunity for the registered voter to resolve the matter.”* After all this, if one of those challenged voters feels they were unfairly declared ineligible, they can appeal to state circuit courts, and Florida law provides a clear procedure for restoring their voter registration.

Detzner dismisses the Justice Department’s concerns by noting that “the State of Florida is not a covered jurisdiction subject to the preclearance requirements of Section 5 of the Voting Rights Act.”* The five Florida counties that are covered are “simply administering a law that the Department of Justice has duly precleared.”

Furthermore, Detzner asserts “Florida’s actions are also consistent with the National Voter Registration Act,” and notes that the Holder Justice Department’s reading of that Act “would grant*greater protection against removal from the voter rolls to non-citizens – who were never eligible to vote – than to other categories of registered voters (such as deceased persons, convicted felons, and the mentally incompetent) who may have lawfully been on the rolls at one time, but have later become ineligible.”

This, in Detzner’s view, would be a violation of the Equal Protection Clause of the Constitution, “which guarantees that the right to vote cannot be denied by a dilution of the weight of a citizen’s vote.”* That’s an important point deliberately overlooked by those who denounce every attempt to clean up our ridiculously antiquated and inaccurate electoral system.

That’s about where the “respectful” part of Detzner’s letter ends.* He’s still polite and professional, but his next point is sharpened like the tip of a rapier.

Florida has been criticized for conducting its voter verification program within 90 days of an election – there’s one coming up on August 14.* Even if the National Voter Registration Act is read to absolutely prohibit any attempt to clean out illegal voters within the ninety-day window, the only reason Florida is doing this so close to the election is that the Obama Administration, specifically the Department of Homeland Security, has “repeatedly ignored or rebuffed Florida’s efforts to gain access to the SAVE database – access that was necessary for successful and accurate completion of Florida’s efforts to ensure the integrity of its voter registration rolls.”* Detzner attached nine month’s worth of emails to back up this assertion.

This is more than a mere annoyance.* Detzner believes it is a violation of federal law, since DHS is explicitly required to respond to state requests for access to this database for the purpose of verifying voter registration and checking immigration status.

“In sum,” Detzner concludes, “the practice DOJ now appears to be endorsing is as follows: the federal Department of Homeland Security may, for months, violate federal law and deny Florida and other states access to the SAVE database so that the federal Department of Justice may then assert that the resulting delays in a state’s election-integrity efforts violate the time periods established in another federal law.”

“This hardly seems like an approach earnestly designed to protect the integrity of elections and to ensure that eligible voters have their votes counted,” the Florida Secretary of State puckishly observes.* He then turns the tables on Justice and asks what steps they believe Florida could take to “identify and remove non-citizens from its voter registration rolls between today’s date and the date of the November 6 general election.”* He wonders if DOJ would object to efforts aimed at merely identifying fraudulent voters, even if no action were taken until after the election.

Detzner expects answers to his questions no later than June 11.* Meanwhile, the New York Times offers an update on how the Florida voter integrity procedure has been going:

So far, 13 people in Miami-Dade County, which has the most potential noncitizens on the list, have acknowledged not being citizens. Two of them have voted. More than 1,000 have not responded to the letter, and 500 are citizens.

What’s that, you say?* Thirteen people have actually admitted to being fraudulent voters, and two of them have actually cast votes in the past, just in Miami-Dade County?* A thousand people haven’t responded to the certified letters at all?* Wow.* It’s not exactly a pointless witch hunt, is it?

How about the number of innocent voters brutally disenfranchised by those Department of State stormtroopers?* That would be zero.* “We are aware of no U.S. citizens who have been removed from the voter rolls as a result of the state’s efforts to identify non-citizens,” says the department’s fact sheet.

The high-profile case of “outrage” being dragged around to media appearances by vote fraud apologists, World War II veteran Bill Internicola, was never knocked off the rolls.* He received one of those certified letters because he lied about his date of birth on his drivers’ license.* He was easily able to demonstrate his eligibility to vote by showing his Army discharge papers.* He was mildly inconvenienced, not “disenfranchised.”

And how big is the problem with illegal voters in Florida?* Nobody knows.* Access to the federal database is necessary to diagnose the problem… and all efforts at diagnosis are denounced as racism or scurrilous efforts to “intimidate” Democrat voters.

It’s long past time someone stood up to the defenders of voter fraud, and took steps to drag our electoral system out of the 1960s.* At the very least, we should be able to discuss the situation rationally.* Let us see if the Justice Department offers some rational answers to the questions asked by Florida’s Secretary of State.
 
#29
#29
Many are "precleared" so it is disputable whether they were in violation. Secondly your second point was in regards to changes in election procedures. It is against the law for illegal votes to be cast by non voters, so the ala decision by a liberal court means little in this case. Procedures were not changed, existing fla statutes are being enforced.

Can you point to evidence that states that these procedures were cleared by the United States District Court of the District of Columbia?

If they were not, then the DOJ has the legal authority to interdict, whether you like it or not.

You still do not say whether it is right to have in eligible voters vote.

Ineligible voters ought to be scrubbed; however, this process ought to be done in a manner that protects eligible voters from being disenfranchised. This is the reason that the VRA demands that certain states and certain counties within states must clear their procedures through the District Court of D.C. Again, has this been done? Further, the 90-day rule is also a measure to protect eligible voters from being scrubbed. It is not as if the VRA is brand new; the State of Florida dropped the ball by not initiating the request for clearance through D.C. right after their last State elections in 2010.

Since the deadline for voter registration in Florida is 29 days prior to the election, it seems reasonable to request that any purge take place with enough time left for individuals who might have accidentally been purged to realize they have been purged (again, in Florida, one has up to 30 days to notify the state that they have moved) and re-register.

In less than 90 days, one could very easily have moved on D-90, notification of their impending purge could arrive at their old address on D-89 (yet, be postmarked D-95), send notification to the state of their move on D-61 (remember, this is when it is postmarked), receive notification that they are no longer a registered voter on D-50, and then re-register on D-30. That person would narrowly escape being disenfranchised. However, if the notification were changed to D-70 (which is quite possible right now in Florida) then this person would lose their vote.

Furthermore a literal reading of the doj opinion would afford greater protection to illegal voters than eligible voters.

How so? It is protecting anyone who is eligible from being purged. Is there vote worth less if there are ineligible voters? Yes. However, is their vote worth nothing if they are purged? Yes.

A socialist court can say otherwise, but it does not make it so.

How is this socialist?

What again is your remedy in this conundrum?

The remedy is that the State should understand the procedures set forth in the VRA and abide by them. Responsible state officials should have started this process in 2010.
 
#31
#31
The answer to all of your non points is that the vra protects eligible voters. The constitution does not say nor does the vra that people casting illegal ballots are afforded protection under section five. Section 5 would only apply to voters who were unnecessarily burdened , not on people who have no right to vote, and then only in certain areas of the country deemed restrictive in the 1960's. Evidence of preclearance is in the links above. What again is your remedy to purge voters illegally enrolled. See al Franken Minnesota election, 312 vote margin, 364 felons voted in that election, plus many other illegal demographics, all curiously democrat. Would you say, in the light of mathematical probability, that frankens election was fair and just? Do you want integrity of elections or do you want a democrat to be elected? Alas the 90 day period was preceded by information requests for save in October, but is not applicable because the state of fla has sought pre clearance in the past and it has been granted.
 
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#33
#33
StoVol
It’s long past time someone stood up to the defenders
of voter fraud, and took steps to drag our electoral
system out of the 1960s.* At the very least, we should
be able to discuss the situation rationally.* Let us see if
the Justice Department offers some rational answers to
the questions asked by Florida’s Secretary of State.

We know the answer to that queston, Eric Holder will
come up with some irrational mumbo jumbo.

Florida (and other states) need to go one step further
and prosecute those illegally registered voters who can
be proven to have cast illegal votes in the past.
 
#34
#34
The answer to all of your non points is that the vra protects eligible voters. The constitution does not say nor does the vra that people casting illegal ballots are afforded protection under section five. Section 5 would only apply to voters who were unnecessarily burdened , not on people who have no right to vote, and then only in certain areas of the country deemed restrictive in the 1960's. Evidence of preclearance is in the links above. What again is your remedy to purge voters illegally enrolled. See al Franken Minnesota election, 312 vote margin, 364 felons voted in that election, plus many other illegal demographics, all curiously democrat. Would you say, in the light of mathematical probability, that frankens election was fair and just? Do you want integrity of elections or do you want a democrat to be elected? Alas the 90 day period was preceded by information requests for save in October, but is not applicable because the state of fla has sought pre clearance in the past and it has been granted.

How does the Franken example and the mention of voting felons indicate fraud? Felons can vote in Minnesota.
 
#35
#35
Declarative... Consistent. Do you believe people who cannot lawfully vote should?

No. But I believe that the system to prevent that MUST, as a matter of law, be reviewed and approved by the DOJ.

Funny you claim to be championing legality when the process to do so is fundamentally illegal.
 
#36
#36
Alas the 90 day period was preceded by information requests for save in October, but is not applicable because the state of fla has sought pre clearance in the past and it has been granted.

Per Dentzner, it was precleared. So, simply release the record of the clearance. It should be on file with the District Court in D.C., the DOJ, and the State of Florida. If that is the case, then the DOJ has no case; if not, then the State of Florida is acting illegally.

Also, if it was precleared, then why was the State of Florida filing a motion with the District Court of D.C. for preclearance in October; a clearance that has not been granted, mind you.

That is not the DOJ failing to grant clearance; that is a Federal Court failing to grant clearance. Now, the Executive and the DOJ are enforcing Federal Law.
 
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#37
#37
Your original source was the Arizona Conservative... do you think we're all THAT stupid? You really don't think we're capable of seeing how biased that article is? For ****'s sake, it's AZ... that state despises immigrants more than the other 49.

Seriously, GS. You're a g'damned moron.
 
#38
#38
How does the Franken example and the mention of voting felons indicate fraud? Felons can vote in Minnesota.

Only those who have completed their supervised release period, point was that small segment covered the margin, we don't know the untold numbers of other subsets due to the doj curtailing any investigation into voter fraud
 
#39
#39
No. But I believe that the system to prevent that MUST, as a matter of law, be reviewed and approved by the DOJ.

Funny you claim to be championing legality when the process to do so is fundamentally illegal.

It's not illegal to prevent people from voting who are not allowed to vote. Funny you claim it would disenfranchise and violate the law, yet an illegally cast ballot dilutes influence and violates the law protecting legal voters
 
#40
#40
Per Dentzner, it was precleared. So, simply release the record of the clearance. It should be on file with the District Court in D.C., the DOJ, and the State of Florida. If that is the case, then the DOJ has no case; if not, then the State of Florida is acting illegally.

Also, if it was precleared, then why was the State of Florida filing a motion with the District Court of D.C. for preclearance in October; a clearance that has not been granted, mind you.

That is not the DOJ failing to grant clearance; that is a Federal Court failing to grant clearance. Now, the Executive and the DOJ are enforcing Federal Law.

It would not be illegal if there were no procedural changes
 
#41
#41
Your original source was the Arizona Conservative... do you think we're all THAT stupid? You really don't think we're capable of seeing how biased that article is? For ****'s sake, it's AZ... that state despises immigrants more than the other 49.

Seriously, GS. You're a g'damned moron.

If a person did not despise them would it be permissible to clear them from eligible voter lists, since it is illegal for them to vote? I see all the love for procedures that would advance a political view. That's just politics. But as a matter of law, if, 7 days before an election massive voter fraud was discovered giving a decided advantage in the race for pres in say Wisconsin, what remedy would a state have? Additionally what if it happened in one county covered in section five with a history of suppression, and in a county not covered. Do you not see that subsets treated differently could violate equal protection? Roberts has hinted at this already that it is an issue that must be decided.
 
#42
#42
Only those who have completed their supervised release period, point was that small segment covered the margin, we don't know the untold numbers of other subsets due to the doj curtailing any investigation into voter fraud

The exact wording of the Minnesota statute:
MINNESOTA STATUTES 609.165
609.165 RESTORATION OF CIVIL RIGHTS; POSSESSION OF FIREARMS.
Subdivision 1. Restoration. When a person has been deprived of civil rights by reason of conviction of a crime and is thereafter discharged, such discharge shall restore the person to all civil rights and to full citizenship, with full right to vote and hold office, the same as if such conviction had not taken place, and the order of discharge shall so provide.

It appears as though the discharge restores the right to vote. Do you have anything to support your counter-claim? If not, then there is nothing that makes me think that those felons that voted for Franken were doing anything illegal; do you have specific numbers for illegal voters in Minnesota? Or, did you think the specific numbers for the felons would provide validity to such an assertion for most who might have ignorantly thought that felons in Minnesota did not have the right to vote?
 
#44
#44
It's not illegal to prevent people from voting who are not allowed to vote. Funny you claim it would disenfranchise and violate the law, yet an illegally cast ballot dilutes influence and violates the law protecting legal voters


By that logic, you could just put all Hispanics in concentration camps on election day....

Come to think of it, that's probably your first choice.
 
#45
#45
By that logic, you could just put all Hispanics in concentration camps on election day....

Come to think of it, that's probably your first choice.

Speaking of logic, the above posits that all Hispanics are illegal. And, typically, you imply that someone you disagree with is a racist.
 
#46
#46
Speaking of logic, the above posits that all Hispanics are illegal. And, typically, you imply that someone you disagree with is a racist.

No, but by his logic, a GOP controlled state government is allowed to act illegally because it is biased against a protected class.

And knows that it's plan for doing so is Implemented in illegal fashion.
 
#47
#47
No, but by his logic, a GOP controlled state government is allowed to act illegally because it is biased against a protected class.

And knows that it's plan for doing so is Implemented in illegal fashion.

since when are illegal immigrants a "protected class"?
 
#48
#48
By that logic, was it a democratic controlled state government that illegally registered unqualified people to vote?
 
#49
#49
The exact wording of the Minnesota statute:


It appears as though the discharge restores the right to vote. Do you have anything to support your counter-claim? If not, then there is nothing that makes me think that those felons that voted for Franken were doing anything illegal; do you have specific numbers for illegal voters in Minnesota? Or, did you think the specific numbers for the felons would provide validity to such an assertion for most who might have ignorantly thought that felons in Minnesota did not have the right to vote?

You reference a 2009 statute .. Franken elected when.. Felons discharged but still on probation cannot vote , and over 800 did
 
#50
#50
The specific language of the voting rights act protects citizens from undue obstacles to voting, not non citizens. That is what the two sides are arguing about. Anyone claiming the superiority of a federal statute over the constitutional right of citizens, not non citizens to vote, sanctions the dilution of my vote. Justice Roberts hinted this would be revisited when someone with standing petitioned. Since fla is not doing anything new here, these laws have been precleared before, note only five counties require pre clearance , they are calling the doj's bluff and hoping for a scouts decision if denied the right to prevent voter fraud.
 

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