Barry Bonds

[hatvol96]

I don't think anybody that knows anything about baseball would argue with you on that point. I say they are similar only in that they both damaged the integrity of the game for purely selfish reasons.

Agreed. However, I give Bonds more slack. One, Rose was gambling when he was a manager. People defend him by saying he never bet against his team. That may be true, but he vastly overused Frank Williams and Rob Murphy, two of his better middle relievers during that period. I find it hard to believe that the bets he placed in favor of his teams didn't influence that. Next, while illegal, steroids weren't tested for in baseball for a good portion of the period Bonds is alleged to have consumed performance enhancers. Also, by any rational view, use of steroids and the like were rampant in the period from '98-'03. Baseball and the fans were complicit in this. There weren't many people bemoaning this during the offensive explosion that ensued. Actually, everyone was happy when it was fan pandering saps like Sosa and McGwire breaking records. The outrage only came when Bonds started having the greatest offensive seasons in baseball history. MLB and the fans should acknowledge their culpability in this whole mess.

 

[volinasheville]

I agree with HatVol. MLB was happy for the Sosa/McGwire record chase since they were on the death spiral after their most recent labor fiasco. They knew or should have known that both these guys were juicing but they needed some spice. I don't know who made up the witless list for the Congressional investigation but they picked the panderers as their stars and look at the mess we got with McGwire's testimony and the Palmeiro hypocrisy. They didn't ask Barry to testify because he doesn't make a sympathetic figure with his attitude. MLB got what they wanted and the price was the 'roids scandal. It doesn't require a genius to see the incredible spike in power numbers and wonder how genetic leaps were suddenly made.

 

[GAVol]

You guys are right . . . MLB and a lot of fans and media stuck their heads in the sand on the whole steroid issue. Just like everything else he touches, Bud Selig has bungled the entire issue.

Bonds deserves whatever he gets, but make no mistake, he's a convenient target.

 

[jdsa]

Honestly, I hope the HR records of all of the players involved in the power surge of the late nineties are vacated. Whether or not the allegations are proven or substantiated or whatever, I'll never accept any of these players as being as great as Maris or Ruth or Aaron in light of the steroids scandal, and I think this rises above the level of an asterisk. Treat these guys like olympic sprinters that dope.

My love of the game has waned much in recent years because of this. Oh well, there's still minor league for an enjoyable baseball experience.

 

[GAVol]

I may just be cynical, but I don't think baseball is any worse than any other sport. Whether it's steroids, HGH, painkillers, supplements, amphetemines etc. all sports have athletes trying to gain an edge. It's just the nature of the beast. We push athletes to be bigger, faster, stronger, but we don't want to know how the sausage is made.

 

[jdsa]

We push athletes to be bigger, faster, stronger, but we don't want to know how the sausage is made.

Either that or we don't care, just want instant gratification.

In this case I will say that in my mind there's a huge difference between the legal supplements we were lead to believe the players were taking and the undetecable BALCO steroids they were actually taking.

Probably I follow college athletics and minor league sports more than the pros for reasons related to this. It may just be my perception but it does seem that there's a little less to be cynical about at that level. Or at least less gets reported.

 

[cotton]

Until Bonds fails a drug test, nothing can be done to his records

Selig has already stated that he needs actual 100% proof

Until so, he can't touch or * his records

Doing so would require him to * McGwire's, Sosas, and others who they can't prove

JMHO, but I think they should. Anybody really think those guys had their magical chase on Powerbars and Flintstone vitamins? Baseball has created its own problem, turning a blind eye for so long to an evil everyone knew existed. I understand the perceived unfairness of retroactively applying anti-doping rules. But in a game that places so much emphasis on history and statistics, can these guys' numbers honestly be compared to anyone who played before 1990? Ruth's record stood for, what, 40 years? Maris' stood for almost 40 more. How many times has 60 been broken since then? I have lost count. And everyone knows the reason, we just winked at it until Palmeiro and Balco.

I may just be cynical, but I don't think baseball is any worse than any other sport. Whether it's steroids, HGH, painkillers, supplements, amphetemines etc. all sports have athletes trying to gain an edge. It's just the nature of the beast. We push athletes to be bigger, faster, stronger, but we don't want to know how the sausage is made.

That's true, but MLB was much slower than the other major sports in trying to police itself, in part because of it's labor agreement and in part because 500ft homers put butts in ballpark seats and sold XXS Sammy Sosa jerseys. That attitude allowed one ungodly mess to develop where players were cheating but not breaking the rules, and it ballooned into a generation of juicers, embodied and personified by Mr. Bonds.

 

[vader]

So, you're not much of a Peyton Manning fan.

:lolabove: No one responded to this one. Funny.

 

[BigUmp56]

MLB Inc. has brought this problem on themselves. They, as an organization are most definetly complicit in this scandal that will ultimately tarnish all of the statistics of the mid 90's to early 2000's. We first began to see these big increases in hitting stats in 1996, the second full season after the strike of 1994. During the 1995 season, when it became apparent to the owners that baseball fans were not going to be very forgiving to what they considered to be a bunch of over paid spoiled boneheads, they had to do something to put those fans back in the seats. Early in 1995, if you remember correctly, the fans were staying away in droves because of the strike. In order to put those fans back in the seats they had to do something. That something was to see to it that offensive numbers went up significantly across the board.

The average fan, after all, doesn't come to the park to see a 1-0 pitching duel. They show up to see the best in the world hit the big fly. We saw a rise in offensive stats over the next two seasons that still didn't appease the fan base. Then in 1998 all hell broke lose with over 30 players hitting over 30 homeruns for the season. 4 of these players hit over 50 dingers that season. You keep hearing about Sosa and MacGuire being in the race to beat Maris, and everyone forgets that Griffey Jr. was right there with them until very late in the season and ended up just 6 shy of 62 himself. The first of the accusations that these were not normal increases centered on the ball being juiced. Then when that was dismissed the idea was postulated that there were more lively bats being used. In all honesty I don't doubt that some of those claims were true. However, I have to believe that the biggest cause of the increase was the performance enhancers. And, I really believe that the owners wanted those increases enough that they not only turned a blind eye to the use of steroids, they actually encouraged their use behind closed doors. Now, they act as if they are shocked and appalled at what's taken place. All the while smiling out of the publics eye all the way to the bank.


Not only the hitting stats will be dismissed as tainted, but the pitching stats will be as well. To date we've only heard very little about the pitchers that were using performance enhancement drugs, due in part to how many of them did not have the enormous increase in physical stature that the power hitters enjoyed. In the future I believe we will find out that steriod use among pitchers was rampant in that time frame. However, I'll leave that thread for another day.


Tim.

 

[GAVol]

Does anybody remember the reports that were circulating in the mid 90s about the reason for the HRs being because the baseballs were souped up due to the manufacturer in Costa Rica lacing them too tightly?

It all seems comical now.

 

[GAVol]

To date we've only heard very little about the pitchers that were using performance enhancement drugs, due in part to how many of them did not have the enormous increase in physical stature that the power hitters enjoyed. In the future I believe we will find out that steriod use among pitchers was rampant in that time frame. However, I'll leave that thread for another day.
Tim.

I agree. I've heard whispers of several pitchers who are now out of the game that were reputed to have been jacked up on 'roids in the late 90s.

 

[BigUmp56]

Does anybody remember the reports that were circulating in the mid 90s about the reason for the HRs being because the baseballs were souped up due to the manufacturer in Costa Rica lacing them too tightly?

It all seems comical now.

I sure do. I mentioned it in my post above. First they said the ball was juiced, then they said the bats were somehow livened up, then there was quite a bit of talk about pitchers serving up meatballs on hitters counts when certain games were already in hand. Like I said before, I don't doubt that some of that was true. I still feel that the performance enhancing drugs were the biggest contributor in the offensive numbers surge, and that the owners were complicit in their useage.


Tim.