BCS and schedule strength

#26
#26
It's also possible to build in bias deliberately. I seem to remember reading an article a few years ago about how the Seattle Times computer rankings were developed by a couple of Washington fans who believed that the existing polls and computer rankings shortchanged PAC-10 teams. They developed their own formula to "rectify" that, and now it's one of the factors used to determine the BCS rankings -- deliberately biased and all. The whole system is a joke.
 
#27
#27
SOS should count more and teams that don't play in conf, championship game should be penalized and if you lose your conf. champ you should be automatically dropped 5 spots.
That's some BS. Why should the Pac-10 and Big East have to add more teams in all sports to appease that? All the Big East and Pac-10 teams play eachother anyways.

The good thing about having 3 losses is that I don't have to worry about my team getting screwed by the BCS anymore.
Somebody's always getting screwed.

It's also possible to build in bias deliberately. I seem to remember reading an article a few years ago about how the Seattle Times computer rankings were developed by a couple of Washington fans who believed that the existing polls and computer rankings shortchanged PAC-10 teams. They developed their own formula to "rectify" that, and now it's one of the factors used to determine the BCS rankings -- deliberately biased and all. The whole system is a joke.
Link?
 
#28
#28
lawgator,

The one that I do is built on nothing except wins and strength of schedule. If you win, you pick up points (that vary based on how strong your opponent is). If you lose, you pick up nothing.

The computers, assuming they actually use strength of schedule as their primary formula, are accurate in having Michigan, Rutgers, and Ohio State ranked 1-2-3. Michigan's combined opponent record is 63-55, Rutgers 46-43, Ohio State 55-63.

As far as a built-in bias, it's certainly possible although I won't do it. I'm a huge fan of SEC football, but they're 2nd in my conference power rankings behind the Big East. To give you an example of how weak the rest of the country is, the Big Ten is 3rd (with 8 teams that have 4+ losses).
 
#29
#29
I'm beyond cutting people down on this board.That said, you mean to tell me California being ahead of Tennessee in the BCS earlier in the year was justified?That's my factual point VA.

One of the problems with computer rankings is that it doesn't recognize head to head wins. Yes, it sucks. However, that's not BIAS. You said the computers were BIASED, which is impossible.
 
#30
#30
Remember, these computer rankings were here before the BCS. One may weight MOV more than SOS. However, there is nobody putting in special values to make Big East of Pac 10 teams look better.

The computers don't see "Florida 9-1." It seems "Team 47 9-1"
 
#31
#31
That's some BS. Why should the Pac-10 and Big East have to add more teams in all sports to appease that? All the Big East and Pac-10 teams play eachother anyways.

My intent was to punish independent schools that are not in a conference, don't get your panties in a wad. But if you are not your coference champ (championship game or not) you should not have a shot at the NC.
 
#32
#32

I was trying to find the original article earlier, but couldn't come up with it. It was from way back when the BCS was first introduced, probably even from 1998. I was obsessively reading everything I could about the new system and how it related to us, Kansas State, and UCLA back then, trying to figure out which team might get left out.

A Google search reveals this comment on a pro football board; this guy is probably talking about the same article I remember. A couple of interesting paragraphs about the biases implicit in designing any computer modeling system, whether you're intending to or not.
 
#33
#33
Technology was supposed to rule out the possibility of bias in placement but the computer has it's own bias with the how many points are scored and what margin of the loss so who really benefits
 
#34
#34
The BCS will screw teams over every single year. The BCS sux, its a joke. The only way to have a real national champion would be to have a playoff system, similar to the NCAA basketball tournament.
 
#35
#35
Ok, I had to register so I could voice my opinion on this subject.

The computers are and will continue to be flawed as a method of evaluating teams because they don't (as far as I am aware) take into account the talent level of individual teams and the leagues they belong to.

Now, those of us who watch and love the SEC are biased as well, but that doesn't mean we are wrong when we claim that the talent level in our league is higher than that of, say, the PAC-10. But, how can we prove it? Inter-conference games are one way, but, let's be honest, upsets do happen, and the sample of games is simply to small to say that because SEC Team #3 defeated PAC-10 Team #2 that the SEC is a stronger league.

Well, I was thinking that a history of NFL draft pics by team or by league would pretty much settle the question once and for all. I had a theory that the SEC produced, in the last 10-15 years, a lot more NFL quality players than most other leagues so I spent a few minutes searching the internet looking for something to confirm my suspicions. In any case, I ran across this article from, of all places, the Wall Street Journal.

Wall Street Journal

You'll notice quickly that 5 of the top 10 teams come from the SEC. Looking at that list, I think it's pretty clear that in a normal year the SEC is clearly more talented than say (again) the PAC-10. But the computers won't see that.
 
#36
#36
My intent was to punish independent schools that are not in a conference, don't get your panties in a wad. But if you are not your coference champ (championship game or not) you should not have a shot at the NC.
Oh, well in that case I'm all for it. I think there needs to be a football rule like the one in basketball, all teams need to play in a conference. The Big Ten got away with a fast one this year, Ohio State didn't have to play Wisconsin.

Alls a conference championship game does is ensure that the two best teams play eachother. It's the only point, I don't believe declaring an outright champion matters that much. In the Big East and Pac-10 round robbin schedules, all the teams play eachother so the best two will play anyways, making a conference championship game unnecessary.

Also, screw Notre Dame. Somebody needs to take a serious cattle prod and herd them into the Big Ten ranch.
 
#37
#37
Oh, well in that case I'm all for it. I think there needs to be a football rule like the one in basketball, all teams need to play in a conference. The Big Ten got away with a fast one this year, Ohio State didn't have to play Wisconsin.

Alls a conference championship game does is ensure that the two best teams play eachother. It's the only point, I don't believe declaring an outright champion matters that much. In the Big East and Pac-10 round robbin schedules, all the teams play eachother so the best two will play anyways, making a conference championship game unnecessary.

Also, screw Notre Dame. Somebody needs to take a serious cattle prod and herd them into the Big Ten ranch.
:hi: exactly.
 
#38
#38
WHAT?!

Are you freaking kidding?

How can you say that a COMPUTER ALGORITHM has popularity. It is actually DEVOID of popularity. There are problems with the BCS computer system, but it's definitely NOT a popularity poll. IF ANYTHING, the coaches and Harris poll are popularity polls, as humans have natural biases and what not.

I think it's quite ridiculous to think that a computer system which doesn't recognize names like "Texas" or "Tennessee" can have some sort of bias. It's ... ridiculous.

Yes, the computers do have problems in that the SOS in each of them could be far more accurate with more work. Right now, it just doesn't go deep enough.

However, I can't get over the ridiculousness of your first point.

The bias is that in every algorithm, there has to be starting point. This is where the designer of the algorithm enters his bias. Billingsley's ranking starts every team where it did at the end of last season. Then a team can either move up or down each week based upon its performance. Therefore, his algorithm includes what I consider a bias based upon last season. For example, North Carolina is ranked much higher in his ranking than the others, simply because of games from last season.

If I can find it, there is a nice writeup from Jerry Palm describing the SOS for each computer ranking.
 
#39
#39
by Jerry Palm
Nov. 1, 2006

In general, the six computer ranking systems used by the BCS all measure strength of schedule and how teams did against their schedules, and all in different ways. None of them consider margin of victory (by order of the BCS poobahs) and only a couple take home and road into account, but two are unique in, well, strange ways.

Wes Colley's system rates only Division I-A teams, so it completely ignores games played against non-Division I-A opposition, win or lose. So far this season, that's 76 games, seven of which resulted in losses for the I-A team. There are still two more I-A vs I-AA games left on the schedule, including Florida vs Western Carolina.


The Billingsley and Anderson-Hester systems do not rate I-AA teams either, but treat games against such teams like games against some generic, but bad I-A team. Massey, Sagarin and Wolfe each rate I-AA teams, so those systems more precisely address those games. For example, Iowa played Montana earlier this year. Massey ranks Montana 44th, Sagarin has the Grizzlies 38th and Wolfe has them 89th.


Anderson-Hester and Billingsley rank them worse and to Colley, the game never happened.


I took the liberty of modifying Colley's formula (since it's publicly available) to treat games against I-AA teams similar to the way Billingsley and Anderson-Hester do, which is the same as playing a bad I-A team. Obviously, adding 76 games to the system changed some things.


In particular, higher rated teams that played I-AA opponents were hurt by doing so, and the higher the rating, the more it hurt. I can't be sure where the line is, but at some point down the rankings, adding the win, even against a bad team, is better than not playing the game, but for the higher rated teams, that's not true.


Under that formula, Michigan and Ohio St are still 1-2, but have significantly lower ratings. Cal drops from third to sixth, while Florida moves up to third and USC jumps Notre Dame to fifth. Rutgers drops past Louisville, Auburn and Tennessee to 10th. Rutgers and Cal are the only teams in Colley's top 10 who have played I-AA opponents so far.


Obviously, the seven teams who lost to I-AA teams were hurt the most, but teams that played them are also hurt in this system because it adds a loss to their opponents.


Duke, which is 114th to begin with, drops to 117th and Colorado falls six spots from 105th to 111th. San Diego St drops nine spots, Northwestern 14, New Mexico 15 and Indiana 17.


Wisconsin drops three spots in the rankings, from 14th to 17th. The Badgers have not only played (and beaten) a Division I-AA opponent, but also three teams that lost to one. Michigan and Purdue will also have played three teams that lost to I-AA teams by the time the season ends.


Richard Billingsley's system counts all the games, but operates much differently than the other five computers. While the others essentially recalculate their ratings every week so that each team's schedule is measured based on the current record of its opponents, Billingsley's system operates in much the same way the polls do. Like the polls, his system has a bias toward preseason expectations in the sense that teams start with the same ranking (not rating) as they finished the previous year and go from there. His system calculates each team's rating for next week based on what it was this week, the current rating of its opponent and whether it won or lost. If a team wins, its rating goes up and if it loses, its rating goes down. If a team does not play, its rating does not change. The adjustments are more extreme the first few weeks of the season to attempt to filter out the previous season. All this is probably best illustrated by some examples.


That doesn't work particularly well especially when teams have a big turnaround in record from the year before. Teams like Northwestern, Fresno St and Colorado, all bowl teams a year ago, are much higher in Billingsley's rankings than any of the others because they started relatively high (31, 61 and 44 respectively) and as they've lost, haven't fallen far enough to get close to where the other computers rank them. Northwestern is 27 spots higher in Billingsley's system than in the next closest one, Colorado is 28 spots higher and Fresno St is 16 spots higher.


That also impacts the teams they play. Last week Michigan got credit for playing the 61st rated team (Northwestern) instead of one of the worst teams in I-A. This week, Notre Dame will get credit for playing the 72nd rated team, North Carolina (1-7), which every other computer has rated at least 26 spots lower. That means playing UNC will not hurt Notre Dame's strength of schedule nearly as much in Billingsley's system nearly as much as it would in any other.


It works the other way too. Rutgers at 13 is only two spots lower than the next closest computer, but might not even be that high if they hadn't opened with North Carolina. The Scarlet Knights started 53rd, but got a big boost by beating the #33 Tar Heels. If that game were this week instead of week 1, you have to wonder if Rutgers would be as high after the win.


Indiana may be in a bit of a resurgence, but it's not showing up in Billingsley's ratings yet. IU is 65th, 14 spots lower than the next lowest rating for the Hoosiers. Kentucky is .500 after a 3-8 season a year ago, but still rates 74th in Billingsley, 22 spots below the next lowest ranking.


Billingsley's ranking is either the highest or the lowest by at least 10 spots for 31 teams. The highest rated of those in his system is #27 TCU. The next highest rating for the Horned Frogs is 40 in Anderson-Hester. The only other ranking system to be highest or lowest on one team by at least ten spots is Wolfe's. He has UL Lafayette 11 spots higher than the next highest ranking. Billingsley is the lowest on the Ragin' Cajuns by 22 spots.


Given all this, when you look at how the six computer rankings statistically correlate to each other, it is not surprising that Billingsley's system correlates relatively poorly. We now interrupt this paragraph for a Geek Alert. Statistical correlation is a measure of how similar one set of data is to another. Like the BCS, it's a number between 0 and 1, with 1 being "better," in this case identical, and 0 meaning essentially opposite.
The best correlation between Billingsley's rankings and another is with Anderson-Hester's at .9299. That's not really that far off, except when you consider that the worst correlation between two of the other five systems is between Colley and Sagarin at .9722. That's a big gap. Massey and Sagarin have the best correlation at .9962.


Because Billingsley's rankings are so different than the others and the computer average is calculated after throwing out the high and the low, his ratings have been rendered nearly irrelevant because they are rarely used. His ranking is the exclusive high or low, and therefore thrown out, on a whopping 80 of 119 teams. It is also tied for high or low on another 15.
This isn't just a mid-season thing. At the end of last season, his rankings were the exclusive high or low on 79 teams.


Different isn't necessarily bad. There's no point in having six computer ranking systems if they're all just going to be the same, but ignoring a big chunk of data because it doesn't fit cleanly with the formula or vastly overrating or underrating teams because of how they did last year don't seem like good ways to be different.
 
#40
#40
Before I ask my question, let me first say this thread is not a lobbying effort for the Gators. I don't think right now that they are good enough to play in the NT game.

Having said that, I am very confused by this week's BCS rankings as it relates to strength of schedule. I just reviewed a chart in the local paper that sets out 1 OSU, 2 Michigan, 3 USC, and 4 Florida, along with the other Top 12 BCS teams.

My impression was the SOS was taken out of the BCS calculation on the assumption that it was already accounted for in the computer polls. But that does not make sense when you look at the Top 4 teams.

According to the chart, Florida's SOS is 6th in the country. That compares to USC's, which is tied for 20th, Michigan's, which is 16th, and OSU's which is a (pitiful) tied for 67th.

Yet, Florida's computer rank is 6. USC's is 3rd or 4th. How can that be? Especially when Florida's loss was to a good Auburn team whereas USC lost to pitiful Oregon State. And them having beaten Arkansas cannot be the answer because, again, that was supposed to have been included in the SOS portion of the computer rankings.

I am starting to think that the SOS component of the computer rankings must be quite smallish and perhaps we need to put SOS back in as its own variable in the overall forumla. Agree or disagree?
Allow me to add one more thing.I can see if USC wins out and Arky wins out they take USC because they blew out Arky earlier in the year.Although I'm sure that scenario would have not come into to play had it been Cal with one loss and UT with one loss, even though we blew them away.That said, IMO, Florida has a tougher schedule from here on out than does USC and I just don't buy into the (groupthink) notion they should automatically play for the N/C over the Gators.
 
#41
#41
lawgator,

The one that I do is built on nothing except wins and strength of schedule. If you win, you pick up points (that vary based on how strong your opponent is). If you lose, you pick up nothing.

The computers, assuming they actually use strength of schedule as their primary formula, are accurate in having Michigan, Rutgers, and Ohio State ranked 1-2-3. Michigan's combined opponent record is 63-55, Rutgers 46-43, Ohio State 55-63.

As far as a built-in bias, it's certainly possible although I won't do it. I'm a huge fan of SEC football, but they're 2nd in my conference power rankings behind the Big East. To give you an example of how weak the rest of the country is, the Big Ten is 3rd (with 8 teams that have 4+ losses).

The problem with that is that it assumes that the opponents' opponents were created equal. The majority of Rutgers' opponents are Big East teams, which of course are playing other Big East teams. I don't know exactly how it would be done, but at some point some level of subjectivity must be imprinted on this because, otherwise, you do not account for the strenght of the conference relative to the others, and of course that is where 2/3 or more of each team's opponents come from.

For example, Arkansas is undefeated in the SEC, whereas Rutgers is undefeated in the Big East. The difference in their opponents' records, over the course of a season, will not be that different because of all the common games among the opponents and for each win there will be a corollary loss, i.e. the straight up difference in Arkansas' opponents' win-loss record does not change when LSU and Auburn play because one will win, the other will lose.

I think I have to amdit that what I am asking for is a weighting by the formula of the conferences for each team. I don't see any other way to do it. And of course since my team plays in the SEC, I want the formula to weight the SEC higher.

Oh, well in that case I'm all for it. I think there needs to be a football rule like the one in basketball, all teams need to play in a conference. The Big Ten got away with a fast one this year, Ohio State didn't have to play Wisconsin.

Alls a conference championship game does is ensure that the two best teams play eachother. It's the only point, I don't believe declaring an outright champion matters that much. In the Big East and Pac-10 round robbin schedules, all the teams play eachother so the best two will play anyways, making a conference championship game unnecessary.

Also, screw Notre Dame. Somebody needs to take a serious cattle prod and herd them into the Big Ten ranch.

First, you are forgetting the money. Never, ever, forget the money. The conferences are making a fortune off the TV and merchandising rights for those games.

Second, you raise an interesting point with regard to round robin formats. On the one hand, as you point out, there is an incentive to do that so that you do figure out who is best, overall, in your conference. And you do it in such a way that you don't have to have a conference championship. On the other hand, you miss out on an opportunity for a last second BCS "nudge," like Florida or Arkansas is going to get this year.
 
#42
#42
Interesting points brought up by all, so I'll let you in on some insight for how I do it.

First off, my poll doesn't see its first incarnation until the last weekend of October. This removes ANY possibility of "Well, they beat this team when they were ranked #whatever, so that counts for something." In the case of both Iowa and Tennessee last year, this means, in the words of Jim Mora, diddely-poo. A team is ranked within the human polls based off a bunch of stuff, and it's normally compiled by people who don't watch the games.

Second, margin of victory is not included in any way, shape, or form. If you beat West Texas A&I by 1, you've beaten West Texas A&I. If you've beaten USC by 70, you've beaten USC. If you lose, it doesn't matter if it's by 1 point or 70, it's a loss.

Third, strength of schedule is determined by wins and losses. What this means, when you think about it, is that an overall conference record is going to be .500 no matter what for conference games, so non-conference is what makes the difference. A team winning games in the Big East or SEC automatically counts for more than someone cleaning up in the Sun Belt Conference. Unfortunately, this also hurts the teams like Boise State, which play in a very weak WAC, but helps a Rutgers, which plays in an unusually strong Big East this year.

Fourth, home and road matter not at all. Playing at home or on the road has nothing to do with how good of a football team you are. It's nice to play at home, but there's no way that a team should be better at home simply because it's a home game. That's like trying to talk about how "clutch" a player is. If he only comes through when it matters most, how good is he really if he's below-average the rest of the time?

Fifth, I use a divisor (games played) against the number of accumulated points (which come from the team's wins and losses). That's how a team like USC, in my October 30 poll, ranked 7th (right after losing to Oregon State) in spite of being only 16th in accumulated points...USC had played only 7 games while everyone else had 8 or 9.

Is it perfect? No, it's not. I plan on adjusting the formula for next year to take "the next level" into account a little bit more than I do for this year, but I'm not going to overhaul everything and start over again because people don't like the computers. I believe my own poll to be more accurate than the other computer ones out there. Heck, my Top 13 is the 12 unbeatens and 1-loss teams, with only 2-loss Auburn making it in there (at #12, 1 spot ahead of Boise State).
 
#43
#43
Ohio, when you say

"Third, strength of schedule is determined by wins and losses. What this means, when you think about it, is that an overall conference record is going to be .500 no matter what for conference games, so non-conference is what makes the difference. A team winning games in the Big East or SEC automatically counts for more than someone cleaning up in the Sun Belt Conference. Unfortunately, this also hurts the teams like Boise State, which play in a very weak WAC, but helps a Rutgers, which plays in an unusually strong Big East this year."


Does this mean that you get more points in your program if you play in the SEC because the SEC teams are doing well out of conference as compared to, say, the WAC?

My complaint, if that is what you mean, is that it accounts more for how the conference teams schedule their out of conference games than it does actual strength of those wins. For example, if the WAC teams start playing crap out of conference schedules, then the teams within the WAC end up with more SOS points than do their SEC brethren who play much tougher out of conference opponents.

I almost think what you need is some sort of multiplier --and I think it needs to be significant -- that you apply to the last number you get for each team. The mutiplier ought to be some function of the concensus rankings of the conferences. For example, SEC teams get a higher multiplier than do WAC conference teams.
 
#44
#44
lawgator,

That's one of the problems I'm addressing by adding in the additional level. I will say that beating up on 1-AA opponents doesn't help. I already revised the formula big-time once this season, but I can't add in the additional level without basically breaking down the program and rebuilding it entirely.

The problem with the multiplier is that, although it's a nice idea, the application isn't practical. First, I don't think anything outside of the poll being done (in this case, mine) need to even be considered when compiling it. There's no doubt that the SEC is a tougher conference than the WAC, but what about everything in between? Is the Pac-10 tougher than the Big 10 or Big XII, and what is "better than" based on? Head-to-head? Overall wins and losses? Margins of victory? Six points of separation?

The other issue there is determining a way to actually intelligently quantify what a multiplier counts for. I can look at any of the numbers that go into the program and be able to tell exactly why it is what it is, but if I throw a multiplier in there, it would be based off something arbitrary that I can't actually derive from anything. I can't just say "A win over Kentucky is worth twice as much as a win over San Jose State"...that may be the case, but there's no way to actually quantify that (and I certainly can't quantify it without doing the same thing to everyone or everything).

But your second paragraph (" My complaint...") isn't quite accurate. A team doesn't just get SOS points based off who they play but based on who they defeat. Otherwise it would make perfect sense for Homecoming Opponent U (i.e. the entire Sun Belt Conference) to load up on out-of-conference powerhouses and get destroyed, but pick up enough SOS points to end up ahead of a 2-loss SEC team. It doesn't work that way. In this system, a loss is counted as "not a win". It's a game played in which additional points are simply not acquired, rather than picking up points for playing a tough team and losing, but be picking up points nonetheless.

By the same token, a team doesn't get a ton of points for beating up the entire Sun Belt Conference on a non-conference basis because of how weak that conference is top-to-bottom. Three Sun Belt wins, three 1-AA wins, three MAC wins (especially how bad the MAC is this year), whatever don't account for much of anything.
 
#45
#45
Technology was supposed to rule out the possibility of bias in placement but the computer has it's own bias with the how many points are scored and what margin of the loss so who really benefits

How many points are scored? How is that bias? And how is margin of loss bias?
 
#46
#46
Allow me to add one more thing.I can see if USC wins out and Arky wins out they take USC because they blew out Arky earlier in the year.Although I'm sure that scenario would have not come into to play had it been Cal with one loss and UT with one loss, even though we blew them away.That said, IMO, Florida has a tougher schedule from here on out than does USC and I just don't buy into the (groupthink) notion they should automatically play for the N/C over the Gators.
Are you kidding?
 
#48
#48
Uh, yeah... USC plays Cal this week, who will probably be extra fired up after losing to Zona. Who does Florida play? Southwest Appalachian State A&M Polytech?

Then the Trojan got a matchup with the Irish, a game equally big to the SECCG, then UCLA. And... UCLA's medicore. But I'm fairly certain they could beat SWASAMUPT.
 
#49
#49
Uh, yeah... USC plays Cal this week, who will probably be extra fired up after losing to Zona. Who does Florida play? Southwest Appalachian State A&M Polytech?

USC will destroy the Golden Bears. USC could either mean Southern Cal or South Carolina. Florida or Arkansas would make Brady Quinn eat grass and would make the slow Irish defense look silly.
 
#50
#50
USC will destroy the Golden Bears. USC could either mean Southern Cal or South Carolina. Florida or Arkansas would make Brady Quinn eat grass and would make the slow Irish defense look silly.
I'm pretty sure any team with at least one guy faster than a 4.5 forty would make the Irish defense look silly.

And when I read USC without any context, it = Southern Cal. Sorry if I got it confused with that craphole of a program in Columbia.
 

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