Bitcoin, Cryptocurrency, and the Future of Global Finance

[n_huffhines]

I reply to the personal attacks by pointing out that poster’s stupidity.

Hate? Ruining the thread? Calm down. The mindless cheerleading of speculators hijacked the thread long ago and opposing views or questions are met with hostility and cheap shots.

You decried the fact that this thread has too much speculation and then ignore any conversations besides speculation. You are here to troll, and you may be the only person who doesn't know it. Sorry that he speculated and personally attacked you, but you don't have to respond to any of it. You decide what you talk about in here, and I'm calling you a hypocrite. Sorry for the personal attack.

 

[Thunder Good-Oil]

You decried the fact that this thread has too much speculation and then ignore any conversations besides speculation. You are here to troll, and you may be the only person who doesn't know it. Sorry that he speculated and personally attacked you, but you don't have to respond to any of it. You decide what you talk about in here, and I'm calling you a hypocrite. Sorry for the personal attack.

Long ago I pointed out that picks and shovels are the likely winners. I suggested, even asked, what is the point of token caps on individual names if the supply of new names entering the market is limitless? Did I miss those replies in the cheerleading clutter?

 

[Thunder Good-Oil]

Also, making comparisons to actual events with a similar look is hardly trolling or being hypocritical. But suggesting the very real possibility of over valuations sure triggers emotional responses.

 

[Thunder Good-Oil]

BTW, I picked up a few hundred shares of HOOD today. Discuss.

 

[lawgator1]

Questions.

1) if your money is lost or stolen, you have legal recourse to try to recover it. What do you do if your botcoin is stolen?

2) if you buy something with money, and it is not delivered or is not in accordance with the agreed exchange you have legal recourse to recover some or all of your money. If you buy something with bitcoin and it never shows up or isn't what you bargained for, what can you do to get your bitcoin back?

For all the faults of fiat money, there is an entire apparatus in place to protect you. Not so with bitcoin.

 

[reecetn]

Questions.

1) if your money is lost or stolen, you have legal recourse to try to recover it. What do you do if your botcoin is stolen?

2) if you buy something with money, and it is not delivered or is not in accordance with the agreed exchange you have legal recourse to recover some or all of your money. If you buy something with bitcoin and it never shows up or isn't what you bargained for, what can you do to get your bitcoin back?

For all the faults of fiat money, there is an entire apparatus in place to protect you. Not so with bitcoin.

The best way to protect crypto is to take custody with a ledger and keep the seed codes safe.

If you do that you will be still at risk for sending to a wrong address, but sometimes it can still be recovered.

Most blockchain transactions are immutable and can be traced. That will not always save you. However the regulatory process is in gear. Hopefully that will be settled soon.

 

[Thunder Good-Oil]

Questions.

1) if your money is lost or stolen, you have legal recourse to try to recover it. What do you do if your botcoin is stolen?

2) if you buy something with money, and it is not delivered or is not in accordance with the agreed exchange you have legal recourse to recover some or all of your money. If you buy something with bitcoin and it never shows up or isn't what you bargained for, what can you do to get your bitcoin back?

For all the faults of fiat money, there is an entire apparatus in place to protect you. Not so with bitcoin.

Let her know what went down.

 

[BigOrangeMojo]

Just got a feeling most of the people holding crypto will be holding the bag at the end. Some will make money but most won't.

At this point in time, crypto is highly speculative gambling. I've made money on it and it's part of my portfolio but it's not investing.

 

[Thunder Good-Oil]

Just got a feeling most of the people holding crypto will be holding the bag at the end. Some will make money but most won't.

At this point in time, crypto is highly speculative gambling. I've made money on it and it's part of my portfolio but it's not investing.

Seriously though, I’ve not been critical because I think they all go to zero. I think that there is a bubble… perhaps valuations are 10 or more years ahead of what’s reasonable. More a bubble than an actual Ponzi scenario. But I still struggle to find ANYTHING to justify ANY valuation. At least with US$s there are real assets and revenues to support the case for a base (but also the huge national debt to limit a cap). Precious metals have industrial applications and consumer applications. Commodities are derivatives of actual production. Secured debt is collateralized against real assets. Equity securities promise a portion of actual enterprises. Crypto starts from what? Ledgers of IOUs for services or delivery of verified assets? I think mine is a reasonable question. What is the underlying basis for exponentially soaring valuations? Lots of dangerous speculation IMO and a risky store of wealth.

 

[BigOrangeMojo]

View attachment 410862

Seriously though, I’ve not been critical because I think they all go to zero. I think that there is a bubble… perhaps valuations are 10 or more years ahead of what’s reasonable. More a bubble than an actual Ponzi scenario. But I still struggle to find ANYTHING to justify ANY valuation. At least with US$s there are real assets and revenues to support the case for a base (but also the huge national debt to limit a cap). Precious metals have industrial applications and consumer applications. Commodities are derivatives of actual production. Secured debt is collateralized against real assets. Equity securities promise a portion of actual enterprises. Crypto starts from what? Ledgers of IOUs for services or delivery of verified assets? I think mine is a reasonable question. What is the underlying basis for exponentially soaring valuations? Lots of dangerous speculation IMO and a risky store of wealth.

That's my issue. You know from the stock thread I am a guy that really likes the fundamentals and likes to put a value on something. I have no idea (nor does anyone in this thread) how to value crypto. If you hear someone who says they know how to value, I'd run. There's money to be made riding speculative waves but much like DOGE earlier this year, you don't want to be the one holding when the wave crests.

 

[n_huffhines]

That's my issue. You know from the stock thread I am a guy that really likes the fundamentals and likes to put a value on something. I have no idea (nor does anyone in this thread) how to value crypto. If you hear someone who says they know how to value, I'd run. There's money to be made riding speculative waves but much like DOGE earlier this year, you don't want to be the one holding when the wave crests.

It's hard to wrap our minds around it but consider that the internet economy contributes $2.1T annually to US GDP. Now consider that blockchain is an evolved and more sophisticated platform for doing business. We couldn't fathom $2.1T happening on the internet 20 years ago.

When you consider the value proposition, a $2.8T global crypto market cap doesn't seem overvalued to me.

 

[BigOrangeMojo]

It's hard to wrap our minds around it but consider that the internet economy contributes $2.1T annually to US GDP. Now consider that blockchain is an evolved and more sophisticated platform for doing business. We couldn't fathom $2.1T happening on the internet 20 years ago.

When you consider the value proposition, a $2.8T global crypto market cap doesn't seem overvalued to me.

Here's the issue from a fundamental perspective. You don't know (and I don't know) if $2.8T is too high, too low, or just right. You (or I) don't know which crypto will have value and which is dog crap (pun intended). How much of the increase in the prices is driven by the technological reasons you lay out and how much is based on a speculative bubble. It's similar to the .com bubble back in 2000. People would bid up the prices for anything that had .com on the end of it (whether or not it was investable). If you chose well, you did well. If you didn't, you lost your shirt.

The problem is most of the people investing in crypto have no idea what they are investing in. (I'm not saying you fall into this category since I find you to be intelligent)

 

[n_huffhines]

Here's the issue from a fundamental perspective. You don't know (and I don't know) if $2.8T is too high, too low, or just right. You (or I) don't know which crypto will have value and which is dog crap (pun intended). How much of the increase in the prices is driven by the technological reasons you lay out and how much is based on a speculative bubble. It's similar to the .com bubble back in 2000. People would bid up the prices for anything that had .com on the end of it (whether or not it was investable). If you chose well, you did well. If you didn't, you lost your shirt.

Yeah, nobody ever "knows" anything with the stock market or crypto. I didn't claim to know. I said it doesn't seem overvalued based on my point. Do you have a comment on my point?

I don't advise anybody to invest their shirt in crypto or the stock market.

You can talk about a difference in fundamentals between crypto and the stock market, but ultimately both have speculative bubbles. In either case, my style of investing is focusing on the undervalued technology. Bubble or not, if I do that then I'm gonna win in the long term. It's hard to fathom losing based what I've put in and what I now hold.

 

[BigOrangeMojo]

Yeah, nobody ever "knows" anything with the stock market or crypto. I didn't claim to know. I said it doesn't seem overvalued based on my point. Do you have a comment on my point?

I don't advise anybody to invest their shirt in crypto or the stock market.

You can talk about a difference in fundamentals between crypto and the stock market, but ultimately both have speculative bubbles. In either case, my style of investing is focusing on the undervalued technology. Bubble or not, if I do that then I'm gonna win in the long term. It's hard to fathom losing based what I've put in and what I now hold.

I think there is some value to crypto. I understand the premise to your thesis. The question is whether the technology is still undervalued with the speculation. That is where I am struggling. When crypto got soft earlier this year, I invested. When it shot back up, I took some profits.

 

[Thunder Good-Oil]

Yeah, nobody ever "knows" anything with the stock market or crypto. I didn't claim to know. I said it doesn't seem overvalued based on my point. Do you have a comment on my point?

I don't advise anybody to invest their shirt in crypto or the stock market.

You can talk about a difference in fundamentals between crypto and the stock market, but ultimately both have speculative bubbles. In either case, my style of investing is focusing on the undervalued technology. Bubble or not, if I do that then I'm gonna win in the long term. It's hard to fathom losing based what I've put in and what I now hold.

There is an army of accountants that record the financial activities of publicly traded companies and a separate army of independent accountants that continuously audit and render opinions on published financial data and another army of internal auditors keeping on eye on the financial activity and a group of company leaders that swear to the accuracy of the published financial statements of those companies. There are also multiple governmental agencies providing oversite such as the SEC, the IRS, state level revenue collectors, and law enforcement agencies. Who or what entities are being held accountable with crypto assets? Who is verifying an honest, thoroughly examined and scrutinized basis for which investors can work from with crypto assets?

 

[Thunder Good-Oil]

It's hard to wrap our minds around it but consider that the internet economy contributes $2.1T annually to US GDP. Now consider that blockchain is an evolved and more sophisticated platform for doing business. We couldn't fathom $2.1T happening on the internet 20 years ago.

When you consider the value proposition, a $2.8T global crypto market cap doesn't seem overvalued to me.

The sum of all internet commerce, most of which is monetized in US dollars, translates to ledger totals in alternative currencies? I’m not following. The dollars, francs, yen, pesos, etc all have governments supporting their valuations with real assets and a flow of tax revenues.

 

[Thunder Good-Oil]

I’d buy into (not necessarily literally) individual crypto currencies that have been adopted by individual countries that have decided to decouple from US$s or related currencies. Many of those countries’ hard currency store more value as toilet paper than money, so it wouldn’t be much of a stretch to run with the alternative. But there are thousands of crypto brands and one in particular was created as a joke and has had wild swings in value after comments made by an autistic multi-billionaire. It seems like there are no limits to adding new flavors and even the most established don’t have methods in place to determine valuations. Even the biggest, mist established might or might not have been developed by a mysterious Asian guy that hasn’t been heard from in over ten years and might or might not be a real person.

What is the underlying thing of substance to support the trillions in crypto market caps? Entries in electronic ledgers? I’m not arguing. I’m ASKING.

 

[reecetn]

There is an army of accountants that record the financial activities of publicly traded companies and a separate army of independent accountants that continuously audit and render opinions on published financial data and another army of internal auditors keeping on eye on the financial activity and a group of company leaders that swear to the accuracy of the published financial statements of those companies. There are also multiple governmental agencies providing oversite such as the SEC, the IRS, state level revenue collectors, and law enforcement agencies. Who or what entities are being held accountable with crypto assets? Who is verifying an honest, thoroughly examined and scrutinized basis for which investors can work from with crypto assets?

Someone Just Moved $12 Billion Worth Of XRP For Free


Obviously, no one will be hiding anything from the public on the Ripple ledger. Yahoo even notices when abnormal transactions are made. They even reported the wallet address rhoPxtkgo3JoGszWzFAv4ZVRyC4ebP4FB5 Oh No the account is public you better hurry up and get what you can before all those Russian hackers clean it out first now that everyone knows there is12 billion dollars in that account.

All the central banks that currently use the XRPL may be able to field your questions better. Give them a call.

Speaking of the SEC they have been exposed trying to give ETH a free pass by suing ripple while the rest of the world waits for said laggards to step up so the US does not get left behind on the CBDC market. The world will go with or without us.

 

[kiddiedoc]

Who is verifying an honest, thoroughly examined and scrutinized basis for which investors can work from with crypto assets?

I'll help with that one, if I can. The blockchain ledger actually contains a record of every transaction ever made and is copied and verified on every node.

The more I read/hear/understand about crypto, the more I believe that the possibilities and use of blockchain are nearly limitless. I was very skeptical at first, and I would still "invest" with caution, but I think we are just scratching the surface of this industry/technology right now. Smart contracts, DApps, DeFi, Collectibles, NFTs, . . .

Have I suggested the podcast "Easing into Crypto" my Michael Caloz yet in this thread? It's extremely informative.

 

[reecetn]

So BTC corrected Perfectly to the .702 fib!!!!

You cannot make this up!!!!!

 

[Thunder Good-Oil]

I'll help with that one, if I can. The blockchain ledger actually contains a record of every transaction ever made and is copied and verified on every node.

The more I read/hear/understand about crypto, the more I believe that the possibilities and use of blockchain are nearly limitless. I was very skeptical at first, and I would still "invest" with caution, but I think we are just scratching the surface of this industry/technology right now. Smart contracts, DApps, DeFi, Collectibles, NFTs, . . .

Have I suggested the podcast "Easing into Crypto" my Michael Caloz yet in this thread? It's extremely informative.

I didn’t question the accuracy of recorded transactions (although nobody is examine those). I asked what is the basis for establishing a valuation… in effect a balance sheet. I’d say profit as well, but those don’t exist. Actual revenues not really either… just a ledger of the claimed activity. The ledger is the transactions. The debits and credits. But there is more to establishing valuations. Somebody can be anonymously he generating transactions between wallet addresses to give the appearance of more volume than is really there. Russia and China could be trading activity with each for example and record it in public ledgers. It’s not too different than what dot coms we’re recording. They were “selling” each other advertising on each other’s websites as trade (at unreasonable rates) therefore recording fast growing revenues which fed the hysteria (although no real dollars actually changed hands… just an exchange of banner ads on each other’s websites). They weren’t making any money though as they had to record off setting advertising expense, but the ridiculous valuations were being based on their sales multiples with the expectation that once the revenues had grown to a very large number, even a modest, positive profit margin would eventually follow but be based on unrealistic, fraudulent sales.

 

[reecetn]

Here is the scam, watch this get ignored until sometime after January when this Bull Run is over. Prepare accordingly.

 

[reecetn]

Have any of you used the trustline app to link to the sologenic dex? SOLO is on a run today. I have made 6000 extra XRP in the last 24 hours on it.

 

[Thunder Good-Oil]

Another question or two. Even though the difficult ones that I ask don’t get answered.

Why should blockchain technology be cited as a reason for large valuations of any coin in the crypto universe? How is it different than S&P 500 companies having their valuations inflated because they use double entry accounting technology provided by Workforce, or Oracle, or SAP, or Intuit, or IBM, or Salesforce?

 

[reecetn]

Another question or two. Even though the difficult ones that I ask don’t get answered.

Why should blockchain technology be cited as a reason for large valuations of any coin in the crypto universe? How is it different than S&P 500 companies having their valuations inflated because they use double entry accounting technology provided by Workforce, or Oracle, or SAP, or Intuit, or IBM, or Salesforce?

One of many reasons.

How large of a valuation do you think it will take to accomplish that on a global scale with a finite 100,000,000,000 tokens. And oh by the way the escrow currently has over 50 billion of those and there is talk of burning those.