Butch getting overlooked..

#52
#52
oregonvol said:
Hmmm...I don't recall hating his hiring. No, I'm pretty sure I started the first thread on here, back in like October or so, saying that we should look at him. I wasn't a fan of the way Dave Hart conducted the coaching search (I thought we should have made public offers to A-list candidates first, as Arkansas did), but I was pretty optimistic when he was hired.

It was only when it became clear that he just wanted to promote his mid major staff that I began to worry. And even then, I stayed pretty optimistic until signing day, when he was bettered by Vanderbilt and signed the 11th ranked class in the SEC. That's when I really started to feel negative about this coaching staff and their prospects to win anything significant anytime soon in the SEC.

There was nothing hypocritical at all in my post. If you missed the irony, I'm sorry. I was simply echoing the majority's almost immediate response here anytime someone criticizes Jones or his staff (i.e. "let them coach a game before you criticize"). You can see it all over the first page of the last thread I posted. Oddly, it took until I came in to this thread before anyone proposed the same standard before declaring Jones to be overlooked or to be Bielema's better.
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Could be me, but virtually every post you've had regarding CBJ, his recruiting, the hiring of his big east bald white guy staff, etc., has typically been at best skeptical and typically negative, giving little context and never the benefit of the doubt. Seems to me a rush to judgment on your part and a projection that he won't be successful, before seeing any evidence.

In one hand, when you criticize him and posters say give him a chance, have a little faith that he's the right guy, you say no, he can't hire, can't recruit, etc and you don't even have to see a game for you to know.

But if someone supports Butch when they feel he's been slighted given his performance thus far, now you want to wait and judge him after he "coaches his first game". Just seems inconsistent, if not hypocritical to me.
 
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#53
#53
I don't mind this at all. I'm fine going under the radar all season. I just want to see a competitive team with a ton of heart that is relentless. Ill take a 6-6 season this year and a bowl appearance in which we show up and play great football. I'm not looking at W and L column this year, I just want to see a change on the Hill for the better. I think we are definitely headed in the right direction.
 
#54
#54
KBVol said:
Could be me, but virtually every post you've had regarding CBJ, his recruiting, the hiring of his big east bald white guy staff, etc., has typically been at best skeptical and typically negative, giving little context and never the benefit of the doubt. Seems to me a rush to judgment on your part and a projection that he won't be successful, before seeing any evidence.

In one hand, when you criticize him and posters say give him a chance, have a little faith that he's the right guy, you say no, he can't hire, can't recruit, etc and you don't even have to see a game for you to know.

But if someone supports Butch when they feel he's been slighted given his performance thus far, now you want to wait and judge him after he "coaches his first game". Just seems inconsistent, if not hypocritical to me.
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Clearly you have misunderstood me. Let me try this one more time...

1. I never said Butch Jones flat out can't recruit. I never even said that he definitely isn't the right guy. But I don't see how he is going to get back to the top of the SEC with the staff he has and the recruits he brought in. It seems like there needs to be a major change if we're ever going to gain any ground talent-wise. Maybe this staff makes a huge leap with their next class. Maybe they will be able to win loads of games with inferior talent. But it's just hard to see it happening.

1A. It's so interesting that people always focus on the "balding white guy" part of my comment, but never the "with subpar resumes" part that immediately followed. Just food for thought...

2. Of course fans can defend Jones at this point, based on his record/what he has done. I've said many times that you should evaluate whenever possible. I wasn't really saying that the original poster couldn't argue that Butch Jones was being overlooked. I was just highlighting the argument that practically everyone on here uses everytime anyone criticizes Butch Jones (i.e. that you can't make an evaluation until he coaches a game) and turning it around on folks who were saying how he's underrated and better than Bielema. I was joking. I don't seriously believe you have to reserve all judgements until he has coached his first game here. That's just silly.
 
#55
#55
oregonvol said:
Clearly you have misunderstood me. Let me try this one more time...

1. I never said Butch Jones flat out can't recruit. I never even said that he definitely isn't the right guy. But I don't see how he is going to get back to the top of the SEC with the staff he has and the recruits he brought in. It seems like there needs to be a major change if we're ever going to gain any ground talent-wise. Maybe this staff makes a huge leap with their next class. Maybe they will be able to win loads of games with inferior talent. But it's just hard to see it happening.

1A. It's so interesting that people always focus on the "balding white guy" part of my comment, but never the "with subpar resumes" part that immediately followed. Just food for thought...

2. Of course fans can defend Jones at this point, based on his record/what he has done. I've said many times that you should evaluate whenever possible. I wasn't really saying that the original poster couldn't argue that Butch Jones was being overlooked. I was just highlighting the argument that practically everyone on here uses everytime anyone criticizes Butch Jones (i.e. that you can't make an evaluation until he coaches a game) and turning it around on folks who were saying how he's underrated and better than Bielema. I was joking. I don't seriously believe you have to reserve all judgements until he has coached his first game here. That's just silly.
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Well, lets just agree to disagree Oregon. I think he did a very good job salvaging a top 21 recruiting class in 2 months time, especially given the state of the program left by Dools. You don't. I think securing TKJr and Creamer this early is great and portends great things to come and furthers his recruiting momentum. You don't- you think it's good news in the short term I guess and that's it.

Also, the resume and accomplishments of he and his staff beat the hell out of Dooleys. I could say the same about Kiffin's- neither Monte nor Lame have done crap in college- hell Lame had to essentially fire his dad. Oregeron was an unqualified loser as a head coach- all he can do is recruit (by extremely questionable measures). So yeah, I got no problem with him pretty much bringing a cohesive staff with him that won leagues championships and then adding a couple of great SEC recruiters in Thig and Martinez and then bringing in a very strong rb coach/SEC recruiter in Gill

So we're just gonna disagree.
 
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#56
#56
oregonvol said:
Why do you Vollyannas love the straw man argument so much? I never said I hated Butch Jones. I am not a fan of the coaching staff he hired. I don't care if he trusts them or not. Every coach with a lousy staff believes in them. Fulmer trusted Randy Sanders and Pat Washington. Who cares if he believes in them? I care about results. What has Zach Azzani ever done?

I never faulted him for failing to rebuild all the bridges Dooley burned. I faulted him for failing to improve our lot so far. And he hasn't. I mean, if you're honest with yourself, you know that we could have hired pretty much anyone and they could have finished 11th in the conference in recruiting. I just want to see progress and I have yet to see it. Instead I see Ole Miss signing top 5 classes and I see us getting outrecruited by Vanderbilt. That's not progress. It's a new low. Is it all Jones' fault? No, and I have never suggested it was. But when your traditional rivals continue to move way ahead of you with each signing class, and even the lowest tier of the SEC is leaving you in the dust in terms of bringing in talent, you need to do something.You need to do everything you can to bring in the best recruiters you can, and I don't see that happening at all.
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Why don't we just let CBJ coach his first game before we judge him. I fully support CbJ and I am excited about the direction our football program is headed in. If you can't find anything positive in the fact that he is reaching out and actually connecting with former players, all I can say is keep looking for the nagative things in life. That will truly take you places in life.
 
#59
#59
Butch is smart to keep his staff relatively the same. Mike Bajakian has produced one of the best offenses in his division almost every year he coached, and with his offensive line being the biggest part. Your offensive line is everything on that side of the ball. You need a man who is comfortable coaching the coordinators blocking schemes.
I can see why the defensive staff is questioned, but all those guys produced at their previous jobs.
 
#60
#60
i think the reason espn said that is because of talent. Arky has more talent than we do as of now. They still have a bunch of petrino kids their that are very good.
 
#61
#61
oregonvol said:
How about we wait until he actually coaches a game here before we start worrying about whether he's overlooked or underrated?
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Hope springs eternal. I think Jones will be a pretty good coach, given time. But there are 13 other pretty good coaches in the SEC. Better to give the guy a season at least before he's crowned "Gruden".
 
#63
#63
Wonder how many times the Hawg's voted for their new man for this Prestigious Award. All kinds of sarcasm in those last two words of the previous sentence.
 
#65
#65
Gruuden said:
i think the reason espn said that is because of talent. Arky has more talent than we do as of now. They still have a bunch of petrino kids their that are very good.
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I don't think petrino recruited that good. We have a very talented squad, but we are inexperienced.
 
#68
#68
volfanbill said:
so I call the game a toss up and I'm betting my posting rights to VN based on a win or a loss? I got the stones to back up just what I said. It's a toss up at best. WKU has gone 7-5 in back to back seasons under Taggart and they replaced him with Bobby Petrino. As far as morals go, no one is saying anything nice about Petrino. But the man can coach. And Taggart left the cupboard absolutely full. I never called it a loss or a win. So I'm not betting my posting rights off this game. Sorry bud. But to pretend like WKU doesn't have a legit shot against a team starting a new qb, new receivers and a porous defense that didn't even make a bowl game last year is just silly.
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You really think Bobby Petrino coaching the mighty Hilltoppers has a chance against Jones' Volunteers, especially at Neyland? You sir need to stick on commentary for the Dukies because your perspective on Tennessee does not hold much water! I suspect another Negavol here!
 
#70
#70
Bielema will probably have more success immediately, but time will tell which coach is the most successful in the long term.... in 3-4-5 years.....way too early to predict the winner here
 
#71
#71
UGADawg4Life said:
Problem is that CBJ has to go head-to-head in-state with #1, according to this list.......CJF!
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Please don't take this personally Dawg, but thats the stupidest effing thing I've read on here in a very long while-- which is damn well saying something.
 
#72
#72
volfanbill said:
Tennessee travles to Eugene, Gainesville and Tuscaloosa. Georgia and South Carolina visit Neyland. Tennessee will be lucky to go 1-4 in those games. Auburn and Western Kentucky are toss ups at best. We're far less talented than last year. Fortunately, so is Vandy, so there's hope there. None of this is Butch's fault so don't go there.

Arkansas plays Florida, aTm, Alabama, LSU, and South Carolina as the only expected losses. They also get Louisiana, Samford, Rutgers, Southern Miss, Miss St, Ole Miss and Aubie.

I would say at best Jones has equal on field results to Bielema. at worst, he's two-three games worse.
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1-4 at best? Sounds like you think they go 0-5 cause "at best" connotes everything goes perfectly and that isn't likely to happen, right? Don't go to Vegas anytime soon, or if you do, take no cash with you. Happy to say I completely disagree.
 
#73
#73
GoVols15 said:
You really think Bobby Petrino coaching the mighty Hilltoppers has a chance against Jones' Volunteers, especially at Neyland? You sir need to stick on commentary for the Dukies because your perspective on Tennessee does not hold much water! I suspect another Negavol here!
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You all are a funny bunch. Tennessee hasn't won a big game in three years and struggled in many. They lose their starting QB, best two receivers, TE and are playing a team returning essentially every one that has actually been to a bowl game the last two years and, while they lost their HC, they replaced him with Bobby Petrino, who is unarguably more proven than our HC. Yeah, that game is going to be tougher than you want to believe.
 
#74
#74
KBVol said:
Please don't take this personally Dawg, but thats the stupidest effing thing I've read on here in a very long while-- which is damn well saying something.
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So you really think we have a shot to beat Alabama, Florida, South Carolina, Georgia and Oregon? With Bama, Florida and Oregon being on the road? I'm not a negavol, I'm just realistic. This team is in worse shape from a talent standpoint than it was a year ago. That's not Jones' fault, it's just facts. What do you think our record in those five games will be? I'm guessing 5-0.
 
#75
#75
volfanbill said:
So you really think we have a shot to beat Alabama, Florida, South Carolina, Georgia and Oregon? With Bama, Florida and Oregon being on the road? I'm not a negavol, I'm just realistic. This team is in worse shape from a talent standpoint than it was a year ago. That's not Jones' fault, it's just facts. What do you think our record in those five games will be? I'm guessing 5-0.
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Good God alive no, not 5-0, but sure as hell not 0-5. You think we might get either AP or WKU and probably lose both. I think we beat them both, win 3 out of 4 vs Mizzou, Ky, Vandy, Auburn, and get one we're not supposed to- either So Carolina or Ga. That's 6-6 Chief. To you I'm an pie in the sky idiot right? To me, you're a down in the mouth pessimist. Guess we're even, or close to it.
 
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