Charlie Wilson's War

#1
volinbham

volinbham

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#1
Given the news we are putting the CIA in Libya it reminded me of Charlie Wilson's efforts in Afghanistan - particularly as we talk about arming the rebels.

Question for the board. What would the ME look like today if CW hadn't gotten involved and the Russians were more successful in Afghanistan? Did this sow the seeds of the problems we face now? Would the Cold War have gone differently?

Thoughts?
 
#2
#2
Charlie Wilson was a liberal too. In the true sense of liberalism, not how it is incorrectly defined today my the masses on the right
 
#3
#3
In my opinion, the time and resources spent in Afghanistan combined with the embarrassment of withdrawal opened the door for politicians like Gorbachev to seek change. I think that the response to the eastern European revolutions would have been much worse had the seeds not been planted by defeat in Afghanistan.

I personally don't tie a lot of our middle east problems to that war. Yes we provided an avenue for commanders like Bin Laden to gain favor through victory, but the Arabs were already in Afghanistan without us. Bin Laden already had money. The Arabs were already of the mindset that they would fight foreign invasion and spread their brand of Islam. The principles we find ourselves bumping up against today were already in full swing with or without our evolvement.

While it is true that our material support greatly benefitted the eastern Afghanistan tribes (thanks to our dear Pakistani friends) with who the Arabs were fighting and this set up the stage by which the more radical tribes would take power in Afghanistan, they still didn't really like Bin Laden all that much. On this same note, it could be argued that the source of many Afghani troubles (in relation to us) lie with stopping our involvement too soon and relying on the Pakistanis too much as an intermediary.
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#4
#4
volinbham said:
Given the news we are putting the CIA in Libya it reminded me of Charlie Wilson's efforts in Afghanistan - particularly as we talk about arming the rebels.

Question for the board. What would the ME look like today if CW hadn't gotten involved and the Russians were more successful in Afghanistan? Did this sow the seeds of the problems we face now? Would the Cold War have gone differently?

Thoughts?
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It's hard to say what would happen with the ME and the USSR, but I'm certain if we had stayed out 9/11 and other acts of terror against the US don't happen.
 
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nbakerld said:
It's hard to say what would happen with the ME and the USSR, but I'm certain if we had stayed out 9/11 and other acts of terror against the US don't happen.
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i very much doubt that. every lousy society needs someone to blame for their ills. the US is that country.
 
#7
#7
nbakerld said:
It's hard to say what would happen with the ME and the USSR, but I'm certain if we had stayed out 9/11 and other acts of terror against the US don't happen.
Click to expand...

I don't have enough data to be certain of that.
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#8
#8
droski said:
i very much doubt that. every lousy society needs someone to blame for their ills. the US is that country.
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TennTradition said:
I don't have enough data to be certain of that.
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Well we've been told on several occasions by the perpetrators of 9/11 it was done in retaliation for our meddling in the ME. Why do you need data?

Our media has come up with some funny ideas, like they hate us for our freedom and other such nonsense. My best friend spent 3 years in Egypt and the middle east immersing himself in the culture. He says they have no idea that we are free. They think our government is just as oppressive as theirs. They are pretty much oblivious to what goes on outside their region of the world.
 
#9
#9
they don't hate us for our freedom. they hate our culture. our tv, our "whores", movies, music, etc. we are the great evil bringing down their moral society and making their daughters whores. this is what happens when you are the big dog.
 
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nbakerld said:
Well we've been told on several occasions by the perpetrators of 9/11 it was done in retaliation for our meddling in the ME. Why do you need data?

Our media has come up with some funny ideas, like they hate us for our freedom and other such nonsense. My best friend spent 3 years in Egypt and the middle east immersing himself in the culture. He says they have no idea that we are free. They think our government is just as oppressive as theirs. They are pretty much oblivious to what goes on outside their region of the world.
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I agree somewhat. Bin Laden has stated numerous times that his ilk for the US is derived from the fact that we have bases on Saudi soil and are in bed with the royal family. They don't like western culture either, but I don't believe that is primary. When Gulf War I happened, he offered to fight in Iraq with his mujahadeen fighters from Afghanistan instead of allowing western military to operate in the ME.

Interestingly, he sees the Saudi royal family as a bigger threat to Islamic goals than Israel. Al Quada is mostly Sunni, the Palenstinians are mostly Shiite and want nothing to do with Bin Laden and his goals. It's very complicated, but the socio-economic-political dynamics of the ME are not as straightforward "terrorists against the west" view as is often portrayed in western media.
 
#11
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droski said:
they don't hate us for our freedom. they hate our culture. our tv, our "whores", movies, music, etc. we are the great evil bringing down their moral society and making their daughters whores. this is what happens when you are the big dog.
Click to expand...

If this were the reason they target us why don't they go after Vegas or Disneyworld? They pick strategic military and economic targets. It's because it's not about chaos and murder, it's about strategy. This is the only way they can fight back. This doesn't justify it in any way, but it does explain it.

"The argument of the “freedom and values” crowd boils down to this: “The decades of U.S. supplying of advanced weaponry and foreign aid to the Israeli government, which is now being used to kill people in Lebanon, and the U.S. government's obeisance and submissiveness to the Israeli government, have had no adverse effect on how Arabs and Muslims feel about the United States. Their anger and hatred is caused by America's freedom of speech, freedom of the press, and rock and roll.”

The same “freedom and values” argument was made with respect to more than a decade of brutal sanctions against Iraq, which contributed to the deaths of hundreds of thousands of Iraqi children — deaths that U.S. officials maintained were “worth it.” People in the Middle East were indifferent to those deaths, the argument goes. Their anger and hatred were caused by the U.S. Bill of Rights and the gambling casinos in Las Vegas.

If there is another major terrorist attack on American soil, you can rest assured that the immediate response of U.S. officials will be: It has nothing to do with the U.S. government's unconditional U.S. taxpayer-provided support of the Israeli government, or with the brutal sanctions that contributed to the deaths of hundreds of thousands of Iraqi children, or with the callous position that such deaths were worth it, or with the invasion and occupation of Iraq, which have killed and maimed tens of thousands of Iraqi people. They'll say instead that it's all about anger and hatred for America's “freedom and values.” And the sad part is that there will still be Americans who fall for it. "

Why Do They Hate Us? by Jacob G. Hornberger
 
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#12
#12
I don't think that Afghanistan is viewed as part of that meddling. Heck, the Arabs were meddling in aafghanistan just as much as we were. Think Israel. And, even that isn't the root cause. It's all about the message, and as the big dog - we are a good target through which to try to send a message. Of course, they got a boot up their rear for it.
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nbakerld said:
"The argument of the “freedom and values” crowd boils down to this: “The decades of U.S. supplying of advanced weaponry and foreign aid to the Israeli government, which is now being used to kill people in Lebanon, and the U.S. government's obeisance and submissiveness to the Israeli government, have had no adverse effect on how Arabs and Muslims feel about the United States. Their anger and hatred is caused by America's freedom of speech, freedom of the press, and rock and roll.”"

Why Do They Hate Us? by Jacob G. Hornberger
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supporting the jews who they hate didn't help anything certainly.
 
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droski said:
supporting the jews who they hate didn't help anything certainly.
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But certainly, they don't even know that we are "free". My buddy was mostly in Egypt and Jordan when W was in office and pretty much every Arab was under the impression that W was a tyrant like Mubarek.
 
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volinbham said:
Given the news we are putting the CIA in Libya it reminded me of Charlie Wilson's efforts in Afghanistan - particularly as we talk about arming the rebels.

Question for the board. What would the ME look like today if CW hadn't gotten involved and the Russians were more successful in Afghanistan? Did this sow the seeds of the problems we face now? Would the Cold War have gone differently?

Thoughts?
Click to expand...

Although it is good to mention the CIA angle, these are the wrong questions about Afghanistan.

The question should be, what if the CIA had not emboldened Amin to kill Taraki? What if the US had thrown support behind the modernizer Taraki despite his courting of the USSR (his neighbor)?

The Russians went in because Amin asked them, little prepared that they were going to kill him and replace him the Karbal.

Taraki was more urbane than Karzai, a modernizer, devoted to Islam but with no intention of sharia law. Even if you call him communist, the communist record is superlative on education, health, transport. IMHO, within a generation, Afghanistan would have been no haven for the Taliban. Instead, we called the mujhadeen the equivalent of our "founding fathers" just to get some revenge for Vietnam....
 
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nbakerld said:
But certainly, they don't even know that we are "free". My buddy was mostly in Egypt and Jordan when W was in office and pretty much every Arab was under the impression that W was a tyrant like Mubarek.
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no i doubt they understand the benefits of a free society. a decent amount probably wouldn't want one even if offered.
 
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#19
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nbakerld said:
But certainly, they don't even know that we are "free". My buddy was mostly in Egypt and Jordan when W was in office and pretty much every Arab was under the impression that W was a tyrant like Mubarek.
Click to expand...

They certainly do know we are free. With all due respect, I don't care what your buddy said about them. I've worked with all sorts from the ME, many of them being from Egypt, and they are fully aware of our free society. I do agree with what you say about their perception of W, but make no mistake, you would have to go into some remote area of Egypt or Jordon to find people that don't know we live in a free society. The bulk of their populations know
 
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shortgameVol said:
They certainly do know we are free. With all due respect, I don't care what your buddy said about them. I've worked with all sorts from the ME, many of them being from Egypt, and they are fully aware of our free society. I do agree with what you say about their perception of W, but make no mistake, you would have to go into some remote area of Egypt or Jordon to find people that don't know we live in a free society. The bulk of their populations know
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the freedoms they focus on is the freedom of women being able to wear what they want and get educated and other things of that variety. porn etc. i think iran proved that a decent percentage of the populace doesn't want this level of freedom.
 
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shortgameVol said:
They certainly do know we are free. With all due respect, I don't care what your buddy said about them. I've worked with all sorts from the ME, many of them being from Egypt, and they are fully aware of our free society. I do agree with what you say about their perception of W, but make no mistake, you would have to go into some remote area of Egypt or Jordon to find people that don't know we live in a free society. The bulk of their populations know
Click to expand...

That's probably a selection bias. The people you talk to obviously have immediate connection to the outside world and Americans. They have probably traveled. The masses aren't in that boat. It's not even clear from your post that the people you talk to actually still live in the ME. My friend was talking to cab drivers and cafe owners. I assume you are talking to the upper tier.
 
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nbakerld said:
You saw what happened in Egypt, right?
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i see the more fundamental muslim group taking over yes. egypt was about unemployment and lack of food. i question the assumption that the majority want US level freedom. at least not those over 30.
 
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droski said:
i see the more fundamental muslim group taking over yes. egypt was about unemployment and lack of food. i question the assumption that the majority want US level freedom. at least not those over 30.
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This makes a lot of sense, but I don't think you should thereby assume that the emerging authorities in these countries will be staunchly anti-U.S. or even radical Islamic in nature. I am sure they will have some influence, but they already did. The last thing the people who fought for their freedom (even if not U.S. level, as you put) are going to put up with is trading one form of oligarchy for another.
 
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disagree. every country in that area expect iraq and isreal have traded one oligarchy for another. what your missing is that the radical groups are the only ones currently organized and keeping the peace. feel good "give people freedom" types generally aren't picking up guns and policing.
 
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