Charlie Wilson's War

#26
#26
droski said:
disagree. every country in that area expect iraq and isreal have traded one oligarchy for another. what your missing is that the radical groups are the only ones currently organized and keeping the peace. feel good "give people freedom" types generally aren't picking up guns and policing.
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It's true. We actually helped Iran out with this process. Maybe another reason why they hate us. Just a hunch.
 
#27
#27
Interesting that we haven't learned the "we'll be viewed as liberators" notion is a fairy tale. I heard some Congressional member going on about how we need to take out Col. Q and the people of Libya will remember that the U.S. was a benevolent force.

I don't know if Eqypt et. al will be better or worse allies going forward but recent history suggests the man on the street ain't gonna like us.
 
#28
#28
droski said:
disagree. every country in that area expect iraq and isreal have traded one oligarchy for another. what your missing is that the radical groups are the only ones currently organized and keeping the peace. feel good "give people freedom" types generally aren't picking up guns and policing.
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Well, I'm not sure how well prior transitions of power correlate to what's happening now. These are popular uprisings where the communication tools are infinitely better, not a military coup in the middle of the night that half the country doesn't hear about for days.
 
#29
#29
volinbham said:
Interesting that we haven't learned the "we'll be viewed as liberators" notion is a fairy tale. I heard some Congressional member going on about how we need to take out Col. Q and the people of Libya will remember that the U.S. was a benevolent force.

I don't know if Eqypt et. al will be better or worse allies going forward but recent history suggests the man on the street ain't gonna like us.
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Fox News and other anti-Muslim organizations will look for interviews, remarks, or demonstrations that make it seem as though the entire populace over there is militantly anti-American. You can count on that.

Just wait until all the evidence is in before you make a decision.
 
#31
#31
lawgator1 said:
Fox News and other anti-Muslim organizations will look for interviews, remarks, or demonstrations that make it seem as though the entire populace over there is militantly anti-American. You can count on that.

Just wait until all the evidence is in before you make a decision.
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are you arguing there isn't a significant majority that are anti american?
 
#33
#33
droski said:
are you arguing there isn't a significant majority that are anti american?
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Well, first, I don't know what percentage are anti-American.

Second, I'm not sure how strong that sentiment is even amongst those who are. I mean, are we talking about people who roll their eyes when we say we want to provide assistance with no strings attached, or are they strapping bombs to themselves?

Third, I'm not sure how deeply that sentiment, whatever it is, is rooted. Are they mildly antagonistic but can be won over with minimal effort? Or are they rabid anti-dentites for life?

I suspect that there, as here, you would see a whole range of opinions on the U.S. Perhaps I'm being overly optimistic in the face of you being overly pessimistic, but I'm hopeful that we will make some genuine effort there to overcome suspicion, dislike, etc.
 
#34
#34
lawgator1 said:
Fox News and other anti-Muslim organizations will look for interviews, remarks, or demonstrations that make it seem as though the entire populace over there is militantly anti-American. You can count on that.

Just wait until all the evidence is in before you make a decision.
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Seriously?
 
#35
#35
lawgator1 said:
Well, first, I don't know what percentage are anti-American.

Second, I'm not sure how strong that sentiment is even amongst those who are. I mean, are we talking about people who roll their eyes when we say we want to provide assistance with no strings attached, or are they strapping bombs to themselves?

Third, I'm not sure how deeply that sentiment, whatever it is, is rooted. Are they mildly antagonistic but can be won over with minimal effort? Or are they rabid anti-dentites for life?

I suspect that there, as here, you would see a whole range of opinions on the U.S. Perhaps I'm being overly optimistic in the face of you being overly pessimistic, but I'm hopeful that we will make some genuine effort there to overcome suspicion, dislike, etc.
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Good, then you believe Iraqi's are overall pro-American?
 
#36
#36
lawgator1 said:
Well, first, I don't know what percentage are anti-American.

Second, I'm not sure how strong that sentiment is even amongst those who are. I mean, are we talking about people who roll their eyes when we say we want to provide assistance with no strings attached, or are they strapping bombs to themselves?

Third, I'm not sure how deeply that sentiment, whatever it is, is rooted. Are they mildly antagonistic but can be won over with minimal effort? Or are they rabid anti-dentites for life?

I suspect that there, as here, you would see a whole range of opinions on the U.S. Perhaps I'm being overly optimistic in the face of you being overly pessimistic, but I'm hopeful that we will make some genuine effort there to overcome suspicion, dislike, etc.
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the television in egypt and surrounding areas is extremely anti american. they don't know any better.
 
#37
#37
volinbham said:
Good, then you believe Iraqi's are overall pro-American?
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No, I don't assume they are one or the other. And I certainly don't assume that there is a universal, agreed-upon, opinion shared by all.


droski said:
the television in egypt and surrounding areas is extremely anti american. they don't know any better.
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Perhaps, but the level of distrust there of the media, especially state-run, is through the roof. They know what they get form tv there is pure propaganda. Some buy it, I would assume. Many don't.
 
#39
#39
volinbham said:
Seriously?
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Completely.

During the unseating of Mubarek, that insipid couple of knuckleheads on their morning show just went on making huge sweeping statements about worry that Egypt is going to become Iran II. Less so on Libya, but that's because they are too busy dancing on the head of a pin between criticizing Obama for not acting, then for acting, then for acting alone, then for not acting soon enough, and lately for acting with others.
 
#40
#40
the literacy rate there is barely 70%. i think you overestimate their analytical abilities.
 
#41
#41
lawgator1 said:
No, I don't assume they are one or the other. And I certainly don't assume that there is a universal, agreed-upon, opinion shared by all.
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You and Obama love these strawmen arguments. No one ever suggested a single opinion was shared by all.
 
#42
#42
lawgator1 said:
Completely.

During the unseating of Mubarek, that insipid couple of knuckleheads on their morning show just went on making huge sweeping statements about worry that Egypt is going to become Iran II. Less so on Libya, but that's because they are too busy dancing on the head of a pin between criticizing Obama for not acting, then for acting, then for acting alone, then for not acting soon enough, and lately for acting with others.
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I meant serious about not making any judgement or assumption (hint hint) about a situation without having all the facts and until then reserving judgment.
 
#44
#44
#45
#45
volinbham said:
You and Obama love these strawmen arguments. No one ever suggested a single opinion was shared by all.
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He and Obama also love implying that 21 year old college students represent the general populace.
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#47
#47
droski said:
He and Obama also love implying that 21 year old college students represent the general populace.
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No, no one is saying they represent the general populace. They might, however, represent one of the larger demographics of the actual revolt.
 
#49
#49
lawgator1 said:
No, no one is saying they represent the general populace. They might, however, represent one of the larger demographics of the actual revolt.
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i hope you are right, but history proves otherwise. can you name a revolt started by the young educated portion of the populace? these people have the most to lose.
 
#50
#50
volinbham said:
Given the news we are putting the CIA in Libya it reminded me of Charlie Wilson's efforts in Afghanistan - particularly as we talk about arming the rebels.

Question for the board. What would the ME look like today if CW hadn't gotten involved and the Russians were more successful in Afghanistan? Did this sow the seeds of the problems we face now? Would the Cold War have gone differently?

Thoughts?
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Doubt the fall of the USSR would have happened much differently, the economics of the situation were what they were. As far as radical groups, I would venture to say that our arming them during the cold war played a role in what we are facing now, but I wouldn't call it the primary reason, and I'd even hesitate to call it a major reason. Radical groups are there, they don't like our presence and they would have been motivated to mobilize and arm themselves one way or another.

This term, managed to find my way into an Econ course taught by a PhD whose focus is transitional Soviet economics. Should be interesting.

I'll chime in here and there as things progress.

droski said:
they don't hate us for our freedom. they hate our culture. our tv, our "whores", movies, music, etc. we are the great evil bringing down their moral society and making their daughters whores. this is what happens when you are the big dog.
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Hypothetical: If we had little or no presence in Israel or the ME, do you think radical groups based there would still target the US?
 
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