Chastity: An Artificial Virtue

#1
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therealUT

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#1
One of my favorite sections from, and one of the few in which I actually agree with, Hume:

Whoever considers the length and feebleness of human infancy, with the concern which both sexes naturally have for their offspring, will easily perceive, that there must be an union of male and female for the education of the young, and that this union must be of considerable duration. But in order to induce the men to impose on themselves this restraint, and undergo chearfully all the fatigues and expences, to which it subjects them, they must believe, that the children are their own, and that their natural instinct is not directed to a wrong object, when they give a loose to love and tenderness. Now if we examine the structure of the human body, we shall find, that this security is very difficult to be attained on our part; and that since, in the copulation of the sexes, the principle of generation goes from the man to the woman, an error may easily take place on the side of the former, though it be utterly impossible with regard to the latter. From this trivial and anatomical observation is derived that vast difference betwixt the education and duties of the two sexes.

Were a philosopher to examine the matter a priori, he would reason after the following manner. Men are induced to labour for the maintenance and education of their children, by the persuasion that they are really their own; and therefore it is reasonable, and even necessary, to give them some security in this particular. This security cannot consist entirely in the imposing of severe punishments on any transgressions of conjugal fidelity on the part of the wife; since these public punishments cannot be inflicted without legal proof, which it is difficult to meet with in this subject. What restraint, therefore, shall we impose on women, in order to counter-balance so strong a temptation as they have to infidelity? There seems to be no restraint possible, but in the punishment of bad fame or reputation; a punishment, which has a mighty influence on the human mind, and at the same time is inflicted by the world upon surmizes, and conjectures, and proofs, that would never be received in any court of judicature. In order, therefore, to impose a due restraint on the female sex, we must attach a peculiar degree of shame to their infidelity, above what arises merely from its injustice, and must bestow proportionable praises on their chastity.

But though this be a very strong motive to fidelity, our philosopher would quickly discover, that it would not alone be sufficient to that purpose. All human creatures, especially of the female sex, are apt to over-look remote motives in favour of any present temptation: The temptation is here the strongest imaginable: Its approaches are insensible and seducing: And a woman easily finds, or flatters herself she shall find, certain means of securing her reputation, and preventing all the pernicious consequences of her pleasures. It is necessary, therefore, that, beside the infamy attending such licences, there should be some preceding backwardness or dread, which may prevent their first approaches, and may give the female sex a repugnance to all expressions, and postures, and liberties, that have an immediate relation to that enjoyment.

Such would be the reasonings of our speculative philosopher: But I am persuaded, that if he had not a perfect knowledge of human nature, he would be apt to regard them as mere chimerical speculations, and would consider the infamy attending infidelity, and backwardness to all its approaches, as principles that were rather to be wished than hoped for in the world. For what means, would he say, of persuading mankind, that the transgressions of conjugal duty are more infamous than any other kind of injustice, when it is evident they are more excusable, upon account of the greatness of the temptation? And what possibility of giving a backwardness to the approaches of a pleasure, to which nature has inspired so strong a propensity; and a propensity that it is absolutely necessary in the end to comply with, for the support of the species?

But speculative reasonings, which cost so much pains to philosophers, are often formed by the world naturally, and without reflection: As difficulties, which seem unsurmountable in theory, are easily got over in practice. Those, who have an interest in the fidelity of women, naturally disapprove of their infidelity, and all the approaches to it. Those, who have no interest, are carried along with the stream. Education takes possession of the ductile minds of the fair sex in their infancy. And when a general rule of this kind is once established, men are apt to extend it beyond those principles, from which it first arose. Thus batchelors, however debauched, cannot chuse but be shocked with any instance of lewdness or impudence in women. And though all these maxims have a plain reference to generation, yet women past child-bearing have no more privilege in this respect, than those who are in the flower of their youth and beauty. Men have undoubtedly an implicit notion, that all those ideas of modesty and decency have a regard to generation; since they impose not the same laws, with the same force, on the male sex, where that reason takes nor place. The exception is there obvious and extensive, and founded on a remarkable difference, which produces a clear separation and disjunction of ideas. But as the case is not the same with regard to the different ages of women, for this reason, though men know, that these notions are founded on the public interest, yet the general rule carries us beyond the original principle, and makes us extend the notions of modesty over the whole sex, from their earliest infancy to their extremest old-age and infirmity.

A Treatise on Human Nature III.ii.XII
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So, in an age when paternity can now be determined scientifically, why do we still cling so fervently to this notion of chastity as virtuous?
 
#4
#4
all those big words and educated thoughts when two words would have sumed up the entire thought........"male ego"
 
#5
#5
Bottom line is there isn't an automatic mechanism in place to prove the kid was sired by the man, consequently, there are social reinforcers in place. You never hear someone say to a woman "Your kid looks just like you." No, those types of comments are reserved for the "father" to reinforce his role in the matter. There is a hidden fear on one side that he will leave and a hidden doubt on the other whether the child is actually his. Only when there is evidence that the child may be the progeny of another man does anyone demand genetic proof. Instead, we have cultural behaviors that include chastity and fidelity that serve to assure the man and keep him around.
 
#6
#6
T-TownVol said:
all those big words and educated thoughts when two words would have sumed up the entire thought........"male ego"
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I did not read it as "male ego". Hume is claiming that no man is going to spend the time/money to take care of a child that is not his (seems reasonable); the only way to ensure the child is his to to keep women from sleeping around; the best way to keep women from sleeping around is to attach some overwhelming shame to women that do.

Now that we have paternity tests, though, why do we need to keep up the sham that is female chastity?
 
#7
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therealUT said:
I did not read it as "male ego". Hume is claiming that no man is going to spend the time/money to take care of a child that is not his (seems reasonable); the only way to ensure the child is his to to keep women from sleeping around; the best way to keep women from sleeping around is to attach some overwhelming shame to women that do.

Now that we have paternity tests, though, why do we need to keep up the sham that is female chastity?
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once again....."male ego"
 
#11
#11
Maybe it's a "feat/accomplishment"

Like Lolo Jones says - keeping her virginity is more difficult than training for the Olympics
HBO: Sports: Home

Maybe we should hand out medals for that or something
 
#12
#12
how does having access to paternity tests help prevent the costs with unwanted children? Even if artificial I can still see the point
 
#14
#14
utvolpj said:
how does having access to paternity tests help prevent the costs with unwanted children? Even if artificial I can still see the point
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Whether I wanted the child or not, I would still provide for the child if I knew it was mine (maybe I am alone on this); I would not provide for the child if it was not mine.
 
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#15
therealUT said:
Whether I wanted the child or not, I would still provide for the child if I knew it was mine (maybe I am alone on this); I would not provide for the child if it was not mine.
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which is fine but still doesn't deal with deadbeats or those that simply can't afford to take care of it (see the Knoxville man with 30+). Can an "artificial virtue" help with that at all?
 
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#16
#16
utvolpj said:
which is fine but still doesn't deal with deadbeats or those that simply can't afford to take care of it (see the Knoxville man with 30+). Can an "artificial virtue" help with that at all?
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It does not seem as though these "deadbeats" are all that concerned with any notions of virtue, whether natural or artificial.
 
#17
#17
therealUT said:
It does not seem as though these "deadbeats" are all that concerned with any notions of virtue, whether natural or artificial.
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but if the women were more concerned with it could it make a difference? Outside of rape, it doesn't matter what the man actually wants if she's not willing
 
#18
#18
utvolpj said:
but if the women were more concerned with it could it make a difference? Outside of rape, it doesn't matter what the man actually wants if she's not willing
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It could; however, the stigma attached to unchaste women could also put women, who very much enjoy sex, in situations where they are more likely to be having sex with "deadbeats"; if there was no stigma associated, they might be having sex with more men that can afford to raise children and/or have the presence of mind to ensure that proper precautions are being taken (condoms, birth control, etc.)
 
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therealUT said:
It could; however, the stigma attached to unchaste women could also put women, who very much enjoy sex, in situations where they are more likely to be having sex with "deadbeats";
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Explain this.

How does the stigma make it more likely that a woman would have sex with a deadbeat as opposed to a more stable man?
 
#20
#20
therealUT said:
It could; however, the stigma attached to unchaste women could also put women, who very much enjoy sex, in situations where they are more likely to be having sex with "deadbeats"; if there was no stigma associated, they might be having sex with more men that can afford to raise children and/or have the presence of mind to ensure that proper precautions are being taken (condoms, birth control, etc.)
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I get your point but as one with a daughter, I always stressed chastity along with responsability. Where the point needs to be driven home is with the boys, there are certain segments of society where having multiple kids with different women is almost a badge of honor.

It should be required for all teenage boys to attend family court, it just may scare enough of them into being carefull.
 
#22
#22
bamawriter said:
Explain this.

How does the stigma make it more likely that a woman would have sex with a deadbeat as opposed to a more stable man?
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A "deadbeat" ostensibly has no respect for virtue, whether natural or artificial; an "upstanding gentleman" ostensibly does. Therefore, a "deadbeat" is more likely to associate with the non-virtuous and take part in non-virtuous deeds.
 
#23
#23
therealUT said:
A "deadbeat" ostensibly has no respect for virtue, whether natural or artificial; an "upstanding gentleman" ostensibly does. Therefore, a "deadbeat" is more likely to associate with the non-virtuous and take part in non-virtuous deeds.
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so how can it be a driving factor and artificial at the same time? Or are you saying to remove the stigma of virtue and women will automatically gravitate to men that can provide and be accepted? Don't really see that happening no matter what
 
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utvolpj said:
so how can it be a driving factor and artificial at the same time?
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It is a useful fiction. If individuals believe it is non-artificial, they will give credence and authority to it, and let it guide them (easy analogy is religion).

utvolpj said:
Or are you saying to remove the stigma of virtue and women will automatically gravitate to men that can provide and be accepted?
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I am positing that if the stigma were removed, if chastity were not thought of as virtuous, then "upstanding gentlemen" who do not want to be associating with non-virtuous persons/deeds, would not have an aversion to women who like to have copious amounts of sex.


utvolpj said:
Don't really see that happening no matter what
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Norms have changed before; norms will change again.
 
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