Citizens

[OrangeEmpire]

many filipinos joined the navy for this.

Rico in the books is Filipino

 

[Pepe_Silvia]

So, if someone chooses not to pay any taxes, you are fine with that (even if it meant that you would simply receive an IOU on your LES)? If someone chooses not to serve on a jury, you are okay with that as well (even if it meant that everyone who had a job, were given the choice not to serve on the jury so that they would not miss work; leaving a jury, at your own trial, full of unemployed individuals)?

On your first point, I don't believe income taxes should even exist, so it's really a moot point for me.

Your second point is a good one. Jury duty is the only compulsory service that I can agree with. However, I don't view that as a service to the state as much as a moral obligation to ensure that a fellow citizen receives a fair trial.

 

[therealUT]

On your first point, I don't believe income taxes should even exist, so it's really a moot point for me.

Neither do I; but, do you believe that absolutely no taxes should exist? If you believe that they should, then you believe that individuals owe something to the state.

Your second point is a good one. Jury duty is the only compulsory service that I can agree with. However, I don't view that as a service to the state as much as a moral obligation to ensure that a fellow citizen receives a fair trial.

Duties to society are duties to the state; the ladder is both horizontal and vertical.

I do not think that anyone should be compelled to do anything for the state; however, that person should not then receive the benefits and privileges of citizenship. A libertarian state should still protect that persons rights (life, liberty, and property); however, the state owes nothing more to said person (health care, social security, voting privileges, trial by a jury of peers (the notion of peers would be absurd since the person is refusing to participate in state activities, their peers would be those who also refuse; thus, they would be tried by a jury of citizens), education, etc.)

The problem would be to compile a list of duties one ought to perform in order to gain and maintain citizenship. I would list these duties as such:

- Complete military basic training. The defense of the state is paramount to the stability of the state. Any wars would be fought mainly with conscripts; these conscripts would only be selected from citizens. If one refuses to serve when drafted, one revokes their citizenship.

- Two years service: Either military, law enforcement, emergency services, or government admin and clerical work. While performing this service, one receives housing, cafeteria meals, and a stipend.

- Jury Duty: With juries of 100-200 individuals, I imagine that one would be called to jury duty quite often. Set an allowance of absents allowed in a certain period, if one exceeds that allowance, one revokes their citizenship.

I would place a time range on when one can qualify for citizenship, somewhere in the neighborhood of between ages 18 and 40. After that, if you have not earned your citizenship, you simply remain a resident.

 

[Pepe_Silvia]

Neither do I; but, do you believe that absolutely no taxes should exist? If you believe that they should, then you believe that individuals owe something to the state.


I am not opposed to consumption taxes



Duties to society are duties to the state; the ladder is both horizontal and vertical.

I do not think that anyone should be compelled to do anything for the state; however, that person should not then receive the benefits and privileges of citizenship. A libertarian state should still protect that persons rights (life, liberty, and property); however, the state owes nothing more to said person (health care, social security, voting privileges, trial by a jury of peers (the notion of peers would be absurd since the person is refusing to participate in state activities, their peers would be those who also refuse; thus, they would be tried by a jury of citizens), education, etc.)

The problem would be to compile a list of duties one ought to perform in order to gain and maintain citizenship. I would list these duties as such:

- Complete military basic training. The defense of the state is paramount to the stability of the state. Any wars would be fought mainly with conscripts; these conscripts would only be selected from citizens. If one refuses to serve when drafted, one revokes their citizenship.

- Two years service: Either military, law enforcement, emergency services, or government admin and clerical work. While performing this service, one receives housing, cafeteria meals, and a stipend.

- Jury Duty: With juries of 100-200 individuals, I imagine that one would be called to jury duty quite often. Set an allowance of absents allowed in a certain period, if one exceeds that allowance, one revokes their citizenship.

I would place a time range on when one can qualify for citizenship, somewhere in the neighborhood of between ages 18 and 40. After that, if you have not earned your citizenship, you simply remain a resident.

I generally favor your idea of requiring a person to have some kind of involvement in their community before being allowed to vote. However, requiring a person to serve the state in order to receive citizenship would seem to demand a larger involvement by the government in our personal lives than I like.

I think we might be approaching this from two different directions. Ideally, there would be no government-provided healthcare (except for some government employees) or social security. You mention both as benefits that may be provided to people who have earned citizenship.

 

[therealUT]

I generally favor your idea of requiring a person to have some kind of involvement in their community before being allowed to vote. However, requiring a person to serve the state in order to receive citizenship would seem to demand a larger involvement by the government in our personal lives than I like.

I think you would ultimately have smaller, less bloated government were these things requirements. The majority of LEOs and government staff would not be careerists; they would basically be interns (aside from small cadres of experts). You could do the same with the military (only a tiny number of those serving their two-year requirement would be retained; they would be the elite and the experts).

I think we might be approaching this from two different directions. Ideally, there would be no government-provided healthcare (except for some government employees) or social security. You mention both as benefits that may be provided to people who have earned citizenship.

I would love there to be no universal healthcare, no medicaid, and no medicare. However, if it were still a provided benefit, I would feel much more comfortable if it were only provided to individuals who had and continue to actually contribute to society in a manner that does not require any special wealth or talent; simply time and effort.

 

[Pepe_Silvia]

I think you would ultimately have smaller, less bloated government were these things requirements. The majority of LEOs and government staff would not be careerists; they would basically be interns (aside from small cadres of experts). You could do the same with the military (only a tiny number of those serving their two-year requirement would be retained; they would be the elite and the experts).


The idea of no burdensome government pensions is intriguing.


I would love there to be no universal healthcare, no medicaid, and no medicare. However, if it were still a provided benefit, I would feel much more comfortable if it were only provided to individuals who had and continue to actually contribute to society in a manner that does not require any special wealth or talent; simply time and effort.

That's how I figured you were viewing it. I was viewing through a more ideal world, where massive entitlements and government intrusion don't exist. I concur that, if entitlement programs must exist, beneficiaries should be required to do something for the greater good in return for said benefits. Ultimately, however, I feel the whole system will have to fall in on itself before any substantial changes are made.

 

[therealUT]

That's how I figured you were viewing it. I was viewing through a more ideal world, where massive entitlements and government intrusion don't exist. I concur that, if entitlement programs must exist, beneficiaries should be required to do something for the greater good in return for said benefits. Ultimately, however, I feel the whole system will have to fall in on itself before any substantial changes are made.

Unfortunately, I agree.

 

[Velo Vol]

What about citizenship by descent?