Coaching/program dicussion (split from recruiting thread)

[LasVegasBill23]

for 10 years! We are not well coached, and we have not been well coached for a long time going back into PS's last several years. We've made it to three elite 8s, it is true--but that is a little misleading as we still have fairly strong talent, and if you have strong talent you should win your first two NCAA tourney games without too much difficulty, and that leaves you to win only your first sweet 16 game to get to the Elite 8. We have to be a lot better in every way--starting with recruiting.

Amen Armchair..... We have talent at least equal to the top teams in the country, yes, UC, ND, TX, SC, all of them.... judging by what players accomplished before they got to KVille.... we need to have the staff develop them..... HW has been in the game for decades.... and she should be able to improve our players (improvement) and roster (recruiting).... and she has 3 top assets to help her..... where are the results....?? I am not satisfied with the alliterative "Elite 8" Nothing elite about it..... I would think minimum FF.... don't think it is asking too much... we should have clearly beaten MD and the "other" orange..... hope for a good year in 16-17

 

[CincyLadyVol]

Right now, Tennessee does not have fundamentally sound basketball players. The staff is not developing their talent. Several players have been sent to various types of camps to improve their skills, but I haven't seen much change.

 

[volbeast33]

We have too many AAU heroes on this board... I coach AAU and coaching AAU is not even close to the same thing as coaching high major NCAA basketball.

I like Holly but have doubts about her being the best coach for the job as well. I'm more concerned about her lack of recruiting last year than I am about the results on the court. She has won over 70% of her games and made the elite eight the majority of her years as a coach.... She is a fairly new head coach and needs to be allowed to grow as a coach and figure things out. She is not Pat Summitt and it is unfair to expect her to jump right in to being exactly like pat Summitt.

I asked the question who do you think we should hire to take the job that would be a legitimate possibility and not a single person answered. During the season people were clamoring for Jeff walz to be our new coach.... The man has had two runner up finishes but has also had three 10 plus loss seasons, not even made it to the elite eight the past two seasons including getting knocked out in the second round by freaking DePaul.

As fans, we need to show more support for this team and this program...... We are doing nothing but harming its image with the constant berating of an all time great lady vol that has led us to a 70% winning percentage and multiple elite eights as well as been a part of 8 national championship teams.

 

[Sandvol]

Can you guys create another thread for whatever it is your going on about. I keep clicking the thread thinking its some new recruiting news, but it's filled with irrelevant stuff that has nothing to do with recruits.

Then this thread works for Holly's recruits. There are none.

 

[FightingArtichoke]

We have too many AAU heroes on this board... I coach AAU and coaching AAU is not even close to the same thing as coaching high major NCAA basketball.

I like Holly but have doubts about her being the best coach for the job as well. I'm more concerned about her lack of recruiting last year than I am about the results on the court. She has won over 70% of her games and made the elite eight the majority of her years as a coach.... She is a fairly new head coach and needs to be allowed to grow as a coach and figure things out. She is not Pat Summitt and it is unfair to expect her to jump right in to being exactly like pat Summitt.

I asked the question who do you think we should hire to take the job that would be a legitimate possibility and not a single person answered. During the season people were clamoring for Jeff walz to be our new coach.... The man has had two runner up finishes but has also had three 10 plus loss seasons, not even made it to the elite eight the past two seasons including getting knocked out in the second round by freaking DePaul.

As fans, we need to show more support for this team and this program...... We are doing nothing but harming its image with the constant berating of an all time great lady vol that has led us to a 70% winning percentage and multiple elite eights as well as been a part of 8 national championship teams.

To be fair to Jeff, he has only begun to recruit very well the past 2 or 3 years. As his recruiting takes off, his teams should be less inconsistent. But comparing him with Holly, whose teams are filled with McDonald's AA, seems unfair from a talent perspective. His first great class starts their junior years this fall, so we should see how he does the next 3 or 4 years before casting judgment.

Jeff is a great game coach. He can strategize very well for a single opponent (e.g., Baylor in 2013), but he can look bad if his gameplan is off (or he is out-talented). In the 4 years since Holly has been coaching, Jeff's teams have gone to the finals, the Elite Eight, the Sweet 16, and lost in the second round. Holly's teams have 3 Elite Eight appearances and one Sweet 16. We can argue about which 4-year performance is better, but the Cardinals have one more tournament win (and that finals appearance) during this time although their performance has been less consistent.

Holly has only been a head coach for 4 years, although she had been doing the bulk of the coaching since 2011 because of Pat's condition. But she has really only been alone on the bench for 3 years, despite her long period as an assistant coach (27 years for Tennessee, and 4 years elsewhere). Jeff has far less experience, but more time as a head coach (10 years as an assistant and 9 years as a head coach).

 

[Coach Jumper]

Right now, Tennessee does not have fundamentally sound basketball players. The staff is not developing their talent. Several players have been sent to various types of camps to improve their skills, but I haven't seen much change.

The trouble with camps is that they have become a way of creating "previews for coaches" instead of "classes for students"... Yes, the players who work them will reinforce some fundamentals but the players who need to be, need to be working on their individual needs in their game every moment that they are on a BB floor.. Three Or more days a week, 2-3 hours a day. Doing drills. Shooting. Working on one-on-one moves, finding ways to increase their speed, fine-tuning muscle memory.

 

[Coach Jumper]

We have too many AAU heroes on this board... I coach AAU and coaching AAU is not even close to the same thing as coaching high major NCAA basketball...

What's changed?

A jump-shot is still a jump shot
Ball handling is ball handling.
layups are layups.

If "this AAU coach" works with premier college talent, he would only expect better results, less time taken in learning new drills. He would expect a 70+% instead of 40+%. He would expect you to go from BL to layup in 3 dribbles instead of 4-5. He would expect your no-ball BL to layup to be within .15 seconds of your with-ball BL to layup.

Dude, you don't speak for all AAU coaches, just as I don't speak for all of them. . . . But we both speak for some of them.

 

[Ladyvolfan4ever]

To be fair to Jeff, he has only begun to recruit very well the past 2 or 3 years. As his recruiting takes off, his teams should be less inconsistent. But comparing him with Holly, whose teams are filled with McDonald's AA, seems unfair from a talent perspective. His first great class starts their junior years this fall, so we should see how he does the next 3 or 4 years before casting judgment.

Jeff is a great game coach. He can strategize very well for a single opponent (e.g., Baylor in 2013), but he can look bad if his gameplan is off (or he is out-talented). In the 4 years since Holly has been coaching, Jeff's teams have gone to the finals, the Elite Eight, the Sweet 16, and lost in the second round. Holly's teams have 3 Elite Eight appearances and one Sweet 16. We can argue about which 4-year performance is better, but the Cardinals have one more tournament win (and that finals appearance) during this time although their performance has been less consistent.

Holly has only been a head coach for 4 years, although she had been doing the bulk of the coaching since 2011 because of Pat's condition. But she has really only been alone on the bench for 3 years, despite her long period as an assistant coach (27 years for Tennessee, and 4 years elsewhere). Jeff has far less experience, but more time as a head coach (10 years as an assistant and 9 years as a head coach).

You think Jeff Walz didn't have McDonald all Americans? He had one of the top recruiting classes in the country last year.

 

[FightingArtichoke]

You think Jeff Walz didn't have McDonald all Americans? He had one of the top recruiting classes in the country last year.

I think you misread my first sentence, where I stated "To be fair to Jeff, he has only begun to recruit very well the past 2 or 3 years."

Last season he had highly regarded sophomores and freshmen, but no All-Americans among his juniors and seniors.

His classes in 2014, 2015, and incoming 2016 class are all good, so expect Louisville to be very good this season. That's what I meant when I said that he has only been recruiting well the past 2-3 years. But prior to that (McDonald's AA are bolded):

2013: Emmonnie Henderson, Starr Breedlove, Janelle Cannon
2012: Courtnee Walton, Megan Deines
2011: Bria Smith, Sara Hammond, Esther Niamke, Jude Schimmel
2010: Shoni Schimmel, Charmaine Tay, Antonita Slaughter, Sherrone Vails, Shawnta' Dyer, Polly Harrington
2009: Nikki Burton, Rachel Story, Asia Taylor, Ashley Rainey

So that's 2 MCDonald's AA in 5 years (19 players).

In comparison Tennessee has gotten a huge amount of talent in the same timespan:

2013: Mercedes Russell, Jannah Tucker, Jordan Reynolds
2012: Bashara Graves, Andraya Carter, Jasmine Jones, Nia Moore
2011: Cierra Burdick, Ariel Massengale, Isabelle Harrison
2010: Meighan Simmons, Lauren Avant
2009: Taber Spani, Faith Dupree, Kamiko Williams

So that's 7 McDonald's AA in 6 years (15 players).

I chose to start the analysis at 2009 because that would be the first class that would play under Holly (as a head coach). Pat's last season saw the departure of that super Tennessee recruiting class of 2008 that featured 5 McDonald AA.

So Jeff had 2 out of 19 while Holly had 7 out of 15. That's a pretty big difference in talent level.

 

[LasVegasBill23]

Good post FA!!! I have always thought we have great players.... even with the recent recruiting drought.... we still have - after graduation - 6 McD's HS All Americans on our team.... so personnel wise, we take a back seat to nobody..... I do not think any other program in the country can make that claim..... that is an amazing fact..... but our players need to be guided and coached..... I hope that this coming year we will have a more structured offense which is marked by good motion and proper spacing leading to less unforced turnovers and better shot selection..... I am always hopeful

 

[Coach Jumper]

Good post FA!!! I have always thought we have great players.... even with the recent recruiting drought.... we still have - after graduation - 6 McD's HS All Americans on our team.... so personnel wise, we take a back seat to nobody..... I do not think any other program in the country can make that claim..... that is an amazing fact..... but our players need to be guided and coached..... I hope that this coming year we will have a more structured offense which is marked by good motion and proper spacing leading to less unforced turnovers and better shot selection..... I am always hopeful

With a program like UT and the quality of athlete we possess,,, "hopeful" shouldn't even be mumbled in quiet corners, "expecting" should be the word used.

 

[LasVegasBill23]

With a program like UT and the quality of athlete we possess,,, "hopeful" shouldn't even be mumbled in quiet corners, "expecting" should be the word used.

I agree 100%, but the structural changes that should be enacted at some point these last few years are not going to happen, so I have retracted into the shell of just being a fan.....

 

[gule]

so, yer a turtle fan?

go terps!

 

[LasVegasBill23]

Good one Gule!!!! The Terps.... let's see how they do with their #1 draft class this year

 

[mlindsay]

I agree 100%, but the structural changes that should be enacted at some point these last few years are not going to happen, so I have retracted into the shell of just being a fan.....

Why don't you think the structural changes will happen and what do you feel they are?

 

[LasVegasBill23]

IMHO we have a coaching issue and not so much a recruiting issue.... but i am reticent to publicize feelings.... we already have enough critique..... our program is undisciplined....and it is a byproduct of the coaching acumen.... the last few years we have had a very talented roster and should not have had to battle to the death with Gonzaga, Syracuse, Louisville or Maryland e.g.

 

[LasVegasBill23]

Why don't you think the structural changes will happen and what do you feel they are?

and sorry to answer your question.... the coaching will not change... a change of assistants is not much of a change and will not alter things en masse..... so I hope for Holly to make changes especially in the offensive scheme....

 

[gule]

followers make poor leaders.

Did you ever try to ride a horse by it's self or in the front when all it's ever done was be a pack horse or a dude ranch pony?

You will work harder than the horse trying to make it go. It will be scared and unsure of itself and never be a fit or decent ride.

Holly's a dude ranch pony.

 

[mlindsay]

and sorry to answer your question.... the coaching will not change... a change of assistants is not much of a change and will not alter things en masse..... so I hope for Holly to make changes especially in the offensive scheme....

My point exactly but many of us get chewed out for saying this. If the truth is that Holly has really been coaching the team/handling recruiting since Parker's class left and with all the talent we have had since then and not be able to truly destroy the teams you mentioned to return to a final four/national championship game is disheartening. IMO if Holly would have allowed Diamond to play the way Diamond plays and not try to force the team to spoon feed Russell and Basharra we would have been looking at a #1 seed and quite possibly the likelihood of playing UConn in the title game. Gone are the days where you can force it in the Post in the game of basketball there have to be some sort of offensive sets/ball movement and until we can do that all the talent in the world will not be great coaching with good talent. Look at what Washington Coach did, he didn't try to force his big girl to play on the box and for them to force feed her he utilized her ability to hit that 3pt/long 2 pt set shot on the perimeter because she could hit it and most post defending her would not go all the way out there which opened up the floor for her guards to penetrate. Holly has to get creative and stop thinking the 1970's/80's style of play is going to be effective in the 2000's a lot of players today are a lot more athletically skilled

 

[Coach Jumper]

followers make poor leaders.

Did you ever try to ride a horse by it's self or in the front when all it's ever done was be a pack horse or a dude ranch pony?

You will work harder than the horse trying to make it go. It will be scared and unsure of itself and never be a fit or decent ride.

Holly's a dude ranch pony.

The same stands true in reverse for the players... Take a racing steed and put it up to a plow... Same results... Frustration, nervousness and uncertainty in its usefulness.

 

[LasVegasBill23]

My point exactly but many of us get chewed out for saying this. If the truth is that Holly has really been coaching the team/handling recruiting since Parker's class left and with all the talent we have had since then and not be able to truly destroy the teams you mentioned to return to a final four/national championship game is disheartening. IMO if Holly would have allowed Diamond to play the way Diamond plays and not try to force the team to spoon feed Russell and Basharra we would have been looking at a #1 seed and quite possibly the likelihood of playing UConn in the title game. Gone are the days where you can force it in the Post in the game of basketball there have to be some sort of offensive sets/ball movement and until we can do that all the talent in the world will not be great coaching with good talent. Look at what Washington Coach did, he didn't try to force his big girl to play on the box and for them to force feed her he utilized her ability to hit that 3pt/long 2 pt set shot on the perimeter because she could hit it and most post defending her would not go all the way out there which opened up the floor for her guards to penetrate. Holly has to get creative and stop thinking the 1970's/80's style of play is going to be effective in the 2000's a lot of players today are a lot more athletically skilled

Yes agreed on what you say.... and I do not want to be critical.... so like to stay under the radar.... but would like to see some new ideas/innovation, while preaching the fundamentals.... which I think we are not solid in..... agreed about dumping the rock down low.... and if we stick with that plan, Mercedes has to be tough..... and all for Diamond being Diamond.... but would like to see her cut down on TOs and involve teammates more.... but full circle that is a coaching thing.

 

[teacherdean]

Well I respect your opinion on Holly. We just see two different spectrums when it comes to Holly and the Lady Vol program. You can check my track record on this board, I don't "beat around the bush, or "sugar coat" anything...that's never been a trait of mine, not on the internet and not in real life.

You base your information on research, I base mine on research as well as experience in actually playinggggg the game of basketball for years. I've coached teams, refereed, and had an older sister that went through the recruiting process. I don't kiss Holly's ass nor do I think the other fans that don't see everything in a negative light do either....we just choose not to sulk and cast a negative shadow on a coach that isn't going anywhere. We've provided a wealth of information that you seem to look over that combats almost everything you've negatively said about Holly. Hell just the other day there was an article about Draya's damn knees and you pop off the negativity by saying Holly is making excuses???? People get tired of that, and I'm one of them!

I don't think ANYONE on this board wants to see the program that Pat built go down in flames. I choose not to accept that reality as of yet. As long as top recruits still have our name amongst their final list, I'll continue to have hope for us. Holly had ONE.....ONE bad year in recruiting and all of a sudden she's a TERRIBLE coach and recruiter. She doesn't say what you guys want in interviews, oh she's a TERRIBLE coach...Holly gets a dog, instead of a cat...oh she's a TERRIBLE coach!

It gets old and every time I see something negative, that makes ABSOLUTELY NO SENSE at all, like most of your post, I'll continue to "call it like I, LadyVol1908, see it and use my "research" to compare to yours. Whether it's "kissing Holly's ass" in your eyes or not.

When it is all said and done Holly is just not the coach to get it done, she "may be a good coach", on some level, but not the coach to compete with the top five programs at the top level of college WBB. Without a doubt, The Lady Vols should have the realistic goal of being a top five team.

 

[HoopDR]

Any of you folks been watching the NBA Finals? I have, cause if it is basketball and it is on....I'm watching. Well, I find it interesting listening to the "basketball minds" discuss the difference in the style of play between the Warriors and the Cavs. I find the Cavs are very similar to the LVs; at least as the "basketball minds" describe them. As I listen to them talk about the Cavs and their ISO offense. I see the whole one player attempts to beat their defender as the other four stand an watch. Reminds me of the LVs. I cant tell you the number of time I have heard a couple of the LV players say..."we need to run more ISO plays".

So as I think about how good the Cavs look against the weaker Eastern Conference teams I think LVs when they play weaker teams.(usually) And also like the Cavs in game three of the finals when they looked so good. But only to realize they had figured nothing out, they were simply hitting contested shots. They then return to their ISO ways and undisciplined defense. It so reminds me of the LVs!!

 

[LadyVol1908]

Any of you folks been watching the NBA Finals? I have, cause if it is basketball and it is on....I'm watching. Well, I find it interesting listening to the "basketball minds" discuss the difference in the style of play between the Warriors and the Cavs. I find the Cavs are very similar to the LVs; at least as the "basketball minds" describe them. As I listen to them talk about the Cavs and their ISO offense. I see the whole one player attempts to beat their defender as the other four stand an watch. Reminds me of the LVs. I cant tell you the number of time I have heard a couple of the LV players say..."we need to run more ISO plays".

So as I think about how good the Cavs look against the weaker Eastern Conference teams I think LVs when they play weaker teams.(usually) And also like the Cavs in game three of the finals when they looked so good. But only to realize they had figured nothing out, they were simply hitting contested shots. They then return to their ISO ways and undisciplined defense. It so reminds me of the LVs!!

I've also been watching as well, Golden State is my favorite NBA team (I'm a bandwagoner) lol. What strikes me in Steve Kerr's interviews is his focus on defense and rebounding. After their 2 blowout losses in the Western Conference finals to OKC, Steve said that their defense and rebounding were atrocious. He stated that their defense is the catalyst for their offense. In that same interview, he harped on player movement and ball movement as well. It reminded me of Holly's interviews, just with less poise.

 

[volbeast33]

Here is Holly in her first four yrs versus other great coaches during the same four yr period:

Holly Brenda F Jeff W. Kim M. Dawn S.
Elite Eight Sweet 16 Runner up sweet 16 2nd round
Sweet 16 final 4 elite 8 elite 8 sweet 16
elite 8 final 4 sweet 16 elite 8 final 4
elite 8 2nd round 2nd round elite 8 sweet 16


Tara V
sweet 16
final 4
sweet 16
elite 8


There is only one coach that Holly does not compare favorably with and that is Geno. Does she have things she needs to improve on? Of course as do most coaches. I am not sold on her but she is no where close to the horrible representative of this university that most of our fans make her out to be. This yrs signing class is huge for her future here at UT.