Defending the constitution

#1

RespectTradition

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#1
Ok, I have a question about defending the constitution.

fact, the constitution grants exclusive rights of war to congress (with one exception). fact, every president in the last 30 years has sent troops into combat on his own authority. Can anyone in the military who in any way participated in such actions hold to the idea that they are defending the constitution when their actions are part of a constitutional violation?
 
#2
#2
Ok, I have a question about defending the constitution.

fact, the constitution grants exclusive rights of war to congress (with one exception). fact, every president in the last 30 years has sent troops into combat on his own authority. Can anyone in the military who in any way participated in such actions hold to the idea that they are defending the constitution when their actions are part of a constitutional violation?

No.
 
#3
#3
people hate the constitution and ron paul said:
Furthermore, the structure of the War Powers Resolution (WPR) recognizes and presupposes the existence of unilateral Presidential authority to deploy armed forces "into hostilities or into situations where imminent involvement in hostilities is clearly indicated by the circumstances." 50 U.S.C. § 1543(a)(1). The WPR requires that, in the absence of a declaration of war, the President must report to Congress within 48 hours of introducing armed forces into such circumstances and must terminate the use of United States armed forces within 60 days (or 90 days, if military necessity requires additional time to effect a withdrawal) unless Congress permits otherwise. Id. § 1544(b). This structure makes sense only if the President may introduce troops into hostilities or potential hostilities without prior authorization by the Congress: the WPR regulates such action by the President and seeks to set limits to it.(2)

I'm just sayin...
 
#7
#7
Would you have the soldiers request a legal review prior to a deployment? Most of my career was spent in units that had rapid deployment responsibilities. That meant bags were packed and we had to be able to respond within 2 hours after alert and wheels up within 18 hours. There is no time to check the Constitution in that scenario so you have to trust that the NSC (and all the chains of command in between) has their act together.
 
#8
#8
Would you have the soldiers request a legal review prior to a deployment? Most of my career was spent in units that had rapid deployment responsibilities. That meant bags were packed and we had to be able to respond within 2 hours after alert and wheels up within 18 hours. There is no time to check the Constitution in that scenario so you have to trust that the NSC (and all the chains of command in between) has their act together.

This.
 
#10
#10
Would you have the soldiers request a legal review prior to a deployment? Most of my career was spent in units that had rapid deployment responsibilities. That meant bags were packed and we had to be able to respond within 2 hours after alert and wheels up within 18 hours. There is no time to check the Constitution in that scenario so you have to trust that the NSC (and all the chains of command in between) has their act together.

I think the constitutional provisions for congress to declare war is exactly the point. Rapid deployments are rash/hasty actions and the decision to put lives on the line should be deliberate and thought out. The constitution gives the president authority to act when the US is attacked. Any other scenario is foreign policy, not national defense.
 
#13
#13
I think the constitutional provisions for congress to declare war is exactly the point. Rapid deployments are rash/hasty actions and the decision to put lives on the line should be deliberate and thought out. The constitution gives the president authority to act when the US is attacked. Any other scenario is foreign policy, not national defense.

In a world of nukes do you really want to wait until we can get Congress to act when we are threatened? Do we want to wait for the actual attack before we respond?

Next question, define war.
 
#15
#15
In a world of nukes do you really want to wait until we can get Congress to act when we are threatened? Do we want to wait for the actual attack before we respond?

Next question, define war.

Why limit it to nukes?
 
#16
#16
Why limit it to nukes?

The nuke era gave rise to the need for rapid deployment forces. But, I do agree that other weapons such as biological or chemicals could do great amounts of harm.

In truth, the RDFs have been used mostly to handle crises that could be classified as more political than military crises. In some cases some small number of Americans were actually threatened but most often it was our national interests at stake. I'm thinking of DomRep, Angola, Congo, Grenada and Panama as examples where the US was not really threatened but our interests were. Never-the-less, it was the nukes that put us on alert status.
 
#17
#17
In a world of nukes do you really want to wait until we can get Congress to act when we are threatened? Do we want to wait for the actual attack before we respond?

Next question, define war.

Yes, if possible. However the constitution recognizes the principle of immediate action when necessary, although it grants that right to the state and the state militia 'No State shall, without the Consent of Congress, ... engage in War, unless actually invaded, or in such imminent Danger as will not admit of delay'

If you don't like the constitution, work to change it. The matter at hand however, is can they justify that they are defending the constitution if they act in violation of it?

War | Define War at Dictionary.com
a conflict carried on by force of arms, as between nations or between parties within a nation; warfare, as by land, sea, or air.
 
#18
#18
In your opinion.

Well, the constitutionality of any question is subject to opinion. This one is pretty clearly unconstitutional. The war powers resolution would be constitutional if it had been properly ratified as an amendment to the constitution.

Congress can't just abdicate their constitutional responsibility and legislatively delegate it to the executive. The constitution doesn't work that way. Checks and balances are intended to keep this power out of the hands of one person.
 
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#19
#19
Yes, if possible. However the constitution recognizes the principle of immediate action when necessary, although it grants that right to the state and the state militia 'No State shall, without the Consent of Congress, ... engage in War, unless actually invaded, or in such imminent Danger as will not admit of delay'

If you don't like the constitution, work to change it. The matter at hand however, is can they justify that they are defending the constitution if they act in violation of it?

War | Define War at Dictionary.com

At what point do you want that justification to be made? When you are at the pointy end of the spear you can't presume to know enough to make that call. You have your mission and objective beyond which you have limited information.

Now, you do have responsibilities within that mission that fall within the Laws of Land Warfare and are expected to uphold those responsibilities even if the situation on the ground is different than what you were told it would be. For example, if you are told the objective has no non-combatants but find women and children on site, then you have to stop and take steps to protect them while you execute your mission.

Are there times when military officers should question? Absolutely. For example, during the LA Riots active duty units were sent out to help the situation and there were huge questions from all along the chain of command as to whether it was legal and how to handle things on the ground. There are lawyers and commanders from Brigade, Wing and Task Force level on up looking at these things so the joes can ruck up and execute the mission.

The next issue I see is that words and actions matter. In other words, a declaration of war means a lot more than a short term armed incursion. Look at WWI especially. The treaties were written to lock in actions that would follow the declaration of war. If Germany declared war on France, then Britain had to declare war on Germany, etc, etc.

When we found Cuban military in Grenada we could have declared war on Cuba. But we didn't because we thought that might have resulted in armed conflict with the Soviets. Instead we chose to protect American lives with a short term armed incursion that got rid of the Cubans and reinforced our interests in the region. In my experience, I would rather take that approach than risk the larger ramifications that come with a declaration of war. And I'm okay with letting the powers above me decide if it is constitutional or not.
 
#20
#20
At what point do you want that justification to be made? When you are at the pointy end of the spear you can't presume to know enough to make that call. You have your mission and objective beyond which you have limited information.

Now, you do have responsibilities within that mission that fall within the Laws of Land Warfare and are expected to uphold those responsibilities even if the situation on the ground is different than what you were told it would be. For example, if you are told the objective has no non-combatants but find women and children on site, then you have to stop and take steps to protect them while you execute your mission.

Are there times when military officers should question? Absolutely. For example, during the LA Riots active duty units were sent out to help the situation and there were huge questions from all along the chain of command as to whether it was legal and how to handle things on the ground. There are lawyers and commanders from Brigade, Wing and Task Force level on up looking at these things so the joes can ruck up and execute the mission.

The next issue I see is that words and actions matter. In other words, a declaration of war means a lot more than a short term armed incursion. Look at WWI especially. The treaties were written to lock in actions that would follow the declaration of war. If Germany declared war on France, then Britain had to declare war on Germany, etc, etc.

When we found Cuban military in Grenada we could have declared war on Cuba. But we didn't because we thought that might have resulted in armed conflict with the Soviets. Instead we chose to protect American lives with a short term armed incursion that got rid of the Cubans and reinforced our interests in the region. In my experience, I would rather take that approach than risk the larger ramifications that come with a declaration of war. And I'm okay with letting the powers above me decide if it is constitutional or not.

That is a valid POV. One I disagree with, but still I can see where you are coming from. However, you can't adopt that POV and still claim to be defending the constitution. You have abdicated your responsibilities to the constitution and given them to someone else. That is your prerogative. You may think that an aggressive, highly reactive military is more important than the constitution. I happen to disagree.
 
#21
#21
That is a valid POV. One I disagree with, but still I can see where you are coming from. However, you can't adopt that POV and still claim to be defending the constitution. You have abdicated your responsibilities to the constitution and given them to someone else. That is your prerogative. You may think that an aggressive, highly reactive military is more important than the constitution. I happen to disagree.

?

Stopping a wmd attack is against the constitution
 

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