Did anyone watch Jon Stewart on Chris Wallace?

#106
#106
which still doesn't mesh with the traditional definition. I've never viewed socialism as something that can be willingly entered into or ignored
 
#107
#107
utvolpj said:
which still doesn't mesh with the traditional definition. I've never viewed socialism as something that can be willingly entered into or ignored
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True. The commonly understood meaning of socialism is government ownership of the means of production. It's also one of those terms that is broad and encompasses many activities.
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#108
#108
actually it sounds like it's being abused to justify future endeavors by the gov't. "See, people already do it so just give us the same responsibility"
 
#110
#110
I think people need a polisci 101 refresher here. Socialism: an economic model in which all means of production are publically owned.

Co-ops are not socialist. Single payer health care is a healthcare system with mixed socialized and privatized aspects.

Socialized healthcare is a system in which all insurerance, medical practitioners and drug producers are government employees. Additionally, if you call some healthcare idea like ACA socialist and you're not referring to the aforementioned model, you're being an idiot.
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#111
#111
milohimself said:
I think people need a polisci 101 refresher here. Socialism: an economic model in which all means of production are publically owned.

Co-ops are not socialist. Single payer health care is a healthcare system with mixed socialized and privatized aspects.

Socialized healthcare is a system in which all insurerance, medical practitioners and drug producers are government employees. Additionally, if you call some healthcare idea like ACA socialist and you're not referring to the aforementioned model, you're being an idiot.
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what is privatized in a single payer system that every citizen is forced to join?
 
#113
#113
which is still controlled by gov't money right? So the distribution is controlled by the gov't
 
#114
#114
utvolpj said:
which is still controlled by gov't money right? So the distribution is controlled by the gov't
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Canadian doctors are not public employees, thus their system is not socialist. It has socialist aspects. That's the end of it.
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#115
#115
utvolpj said:
which is still controlled by gov't money right? So the distribution is controlled by the gov't
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They can operate wherever they want and specialize in whatever they want. The pay varies based on those two things because rates are collectively bargained, but the Canadian government in no way acts as an employer of doctors there.
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#116
#116
dreVol said:
A cooperative. A collectively owned entity that is run for the benefit of its members, like a credit union.
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credit unions are not socialist entities - they are private entities in which the members are also the owners. I think it's really stretching the term to apply it to credit unions.
 
#117
#117
milohimself said:
They can operate wherever they want and specialize in whatever they want. The pay varies based on those two things because rates are collectively bargained, but the Canadian government in no way acts as an employer of doctors there.
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well I consider my employer as the person who gives me my check. In this scenario is that not the Canadian gov't? Maybe they should be considered contractors instead of private entities
 
#118
#118
utvolpj said:
well I consider my employer as the person who gives me my check. In this scenario is that not the Canadian gov't? Maybe they should be considered contractors instead of private entities
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Then you can consider yourself an employer of the clerk at the store next time you get groceries.

The Canadian gov't reimburses people to see whichever practitioner they choose at a set rate. That check goes to a practice, the practitioners income check has the business name on it and the owner can set income and re-investment however they choose once they have the check.

Again, if a doctors take home check has their provinces name at the top, then it would be socialized. But that's not the case, so it's not socialized. The payment for medical services in Canada is socialist on it's own. The actual practice of healthcare is privatized.
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#119
#119
person paying a company for a service is not the same. Play the semantics game but the gov't is taking money for the sole purpose of providing healthcare for all. It is in charge of the distribution of the funds to those people working for them, the doctors.
 
#120
#120
KiffinKiller said:
Health care is socialized right now...lol. If you pay premiums and don't use the money - where does it go?
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Are you asking rhetorically or are you serious?

If you are serious... It goes to investments in a similar way that money does when put into a checking or savings account. A BIG part of why we do not want socialized medicine is that insurance companies mitigate premium expense by making interest off of premium money.

Also when you pay for insurance, you are NOT paying for a service. Not for you. Not for someone else. You are paying to "insure" that you will not be hit with a service charge that you cannot pay. If you do not use it... you are still getting what you paid for.

Lastly, no one is forced to participate in a health insurance plan or co-op. Ownership of you nor your property has been transferred to gov't.
 
#121
#121
milohimself said:
I think people need a polisci 101 refresher here. Socialism: an economic model in which all means of production are publically owned.

Co-ops are not socialist. Single payer health care is a healthcare system with mixed socialized and privatized aspects.

Socialized healthcare is a system in which all insurerance, medical practitioners and drug producers are government employees. Additionally, if you call some healthcare idea like ACA socialist and you're not referring to the aforementioned model, you're being an idiot.
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I would suggest you read up on agrarian socialism (spoiler alert: that's a cooperative). For a more interesting perspective on socialism and cooperatives, please read Socialism 101 | It's About The Money
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#122
#122
milohimself said:
I think people need a polisci 101 refresher here. Socialism: an economic model in which all means of production are publically owned.

Co-ops are not socialist. Single payer health care is a healthcare system with mixed socialized and privatized aspects.

Socialized healthcare is a system in which all insurerance, medical practitioners and drug producers are government employees. Additionally, if you call some healthcare idea like ACA socialist and you're not referring to the aforementioned model, you're being an idiot.
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What you are saying would probably be true except for one critical factor. Individuals have neither the right to opt out or choose another option. Gov't in this case owns the "means of producing" payment for all medical services. As such, they also dictate the terms of service to both the patient and the provider.
 
#123
#123
volinbham said:
credit unions are not socialist entities - they are private entities in which the members are also the owners. I think it's really stretching the term to apply it to credit unions.
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Farms are also private entities. Farmers can enter into voluntary cooperatives whereby the individual works as part of a collective. Private vs. Public ownership is only one type of socialism.
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#124
#124
sjt18 said:
What you are saying would probably be true except for one critical factor. Individuals have neither the right to opt out or choose another option. Gov't in this case owns the "means of producing" payment for all medical services. As such, they also dictate the terms of service to both the patient and the provider.
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What about the US postal service? - people can choose to send their mail through Fedex, UPS, ect.
 
#125
#125
milohimself said:
I think people need a polisci 101 refresher here. Socialism: an economic model in which all means of production are publically owned.

Co-ops are not socialist. Single payer health care is a healthcare system with mixed socialized and privatized aspects.

Socialized healthcare is a system in which all insurerance, medical practitioners and drug producers are government employees. Additionally, if you call some healthcare idea like ACA socialist and you're not referring to the aforementioned model, you're being an idiot.
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My point re: Bachmann in the other thread was that it seems like she does not understand the nuance of this. Now, at this point I have to confess a third possibility as between moron or hypocrite.

And that is that she DOES understand the varying degrees and angles of socialism in terms of everything from Medicare, to farm subsidies, Obama care, roads, the military, food stamps, public education, etc., and that she is intentionally abusing the phraseology to score cheap political points with the uneducated.

Given the way that she has made these comments, her mannerisms when doing so, and the overall approach she has to complex issues, it sure doesn't seem likely to me that this is her game plan. Rather, it truly does seem that she has a 7th grade comprehension of the subject and very little regard for the subtleties, which are indeed important.

So I keep going back to her being pretty much a moron (edit: not so much incapable of understanding it but rather slinging around the term when she is not knowledgeable about it because it gets her crowd fired up.)
 
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