Does anybody actually support ObamaCare?

[jackaro]

I wish this were true. I think there was a time when liberals weren't opposed to freedom, but almost every single policy stance they now have involves taking away freedoms from the people and giving power once possessed by the people to the federal government.

When they say I cannot keep my current health insurance, and then force me to buy insurance that I don't need/want, they are going against freedom.

When they tell me I cannot own guns or defend myself, they are going against freedom.

When they tell me that my taxes aren't high enough already, even though they already take away over a third of my income, they are going against freedom.

When they force me into investment Ponzi schemes like Social Security, they are going against freedom.

With every bill that becomes law, it seems we lose more and more of our freedoms, and certainly liberals are not going to put a stop to this until we have the Marxist authoritarian government they desire.

Obama once criticized our Constitution for going "too far" in limiting government, giving too many freedoms to the American people. I think this leftist belief is now shared by most elected Democrats, given their blatant disregard for the Constitution, especially the 10th amendment.

I really just wish the left would leave me alone and let me run my own life, because I know for certain I am more capable of it than they are. With how bad the government is at running stuff, I still cannot fathom why liberals still want the government to control their lives.

My understanding of the Health Bill is that anyone who is happy with their current insurance does not have to give it up. I have not read the 1,000 page bill but that is my understanding.

Liberals are just plain wrong on gun rights. The Brady Bill was absurd, and the only thing it did was cause the price of "assault rifles" to skyrocket. No ones guns got taken away.

It is my belief that Social Security has done far more good than harm. Obviously, we disagree on this. Someone can work their tail off all their adult life and still not be able to save enough to live on when they cannot work anymore.

As liberal as I am, I do believe that no tax should take more than 1/3 of someones income (or inheritance, etc). Most people should have a tax rate much less than that.

I do think that some of the provisions in the Patriot Act were much more of an assault on freedoms and civil liberties than anything you mentioned. I just see conservatives being more inclined to take away a citizens civil liberties, in the name of security, than any liberal policy. To quote Benjamin Franklin:

"Those who would give up Essential Liberty to purchase a little Temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety."

 

[jackaro]

Don't ever try to tell me the ACLU stands up for my rights.[/QUOTE]

From now on I will just say "The ACLU stands up for my rights." That way it will not include you.

 

[T-TownVol]

While I would say they are more socialist than communist, your point stands.

I have a great respect for the fact that they fight the good fight to protect our civil liberties and freedoms. Civil liberties and freedoms are the core of this liberals belief in America, the greatest nation on earth.

I am sorry, but they fight the fights that serve to advance their agenda. They DO NOT fight to protect every one, only the people/cause that they deem "worthy".

 

[T-TownVol]

When we were searching for kids to adopt. We tried to adopt three black brothers, ages 8, 6 and 4. Mind you, that once a child turns 5 years old, the chances of that child EVER being adopted is about 20%.
The ACLU stepped in and said thet they wanted those boys to go to a black family and the state of FL just gave in.
Well, you guessed it, those three boys are STILL in foster homes three years later.
The ACLU is a political machine, plain and simple.

 

[TNvol86]

My understanding of the Health Bill is that anyone who is happy with their current insurance does not have to give it up. I have not read the 1,000 page bill but that is my understanding.

Liberals are just plain wrong on gun rights. The Brady Bill was absurd, and the only thing it did was cause the price of "assault rifles" to skyrocket. No ones guns got taken away.

It is my belief that Social Security has done far more good than harm. Obviously, we disagree on this. Someone can work their tail off all their adult life and still not be able to save enough to live on when they cannot work anymore.

As liberal as I am, I do believe that no tax should take more than 1/3 of someones income (or inheritance, etc). Most people should have a tax rate much less than that.

I do think that some of the provisions in the Patriot Act were much more of an assault on freedoms and civil liberties than anything you mentioned. I just see conservatives being more inclined to take away a citizens civil liberties, in the name of security, than any liberal policy. To quote Benjamin Franklin:

"Those who would give up Essential Liberty to purchase a little Temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety."

Under the current bill, you're allowed to keep your current health insurance if it meets their standards (although they will start taxing it). My health insurance is just for catastrophic coverage (i.e. they pay everything after $2000, I pay everything up to that out of pocket). I do this because I never go to the doctor unless I am completely incapacitated by illness, but I still want coverage if something really bad were to happen. I keep the first $2000 in a tax free HSA, which Democrats are also trying to ban. For some reason, Democrats don't think my system should be legal, and are going to force me to pay for full insurance at a much higher rate... even though I don't want or need it. I don't see how anyone thinks that is okay. I get to pay twice as much for insurance now because Dems think they know what is best for me, despite the fact that I know it was better for me to keep the extra $150/month or so.

If you think social security is a good idea, then I'm sure you also think Bernie Madoff was just providing an honest service to investors. They both have the same structure, known as a Ponzi scheme. It would have been much better if the 7-14% of our incomes that is taken away for social security, instead went into private annuities for every individual. The ROI would be much, much, much higher (everyone would retire with plenty of money), it would be treated as an asset, so families are not screwed over if someone pays into social security for life but doesn't live long enough to start collecting, and most importantly, it would not go bankrupt or run at losses like every Ponzi scheme is inevitably doomed to. Private accounts are necessary, and would be beneficial to everyone involved.

I agree that many provisions of the Patriot Act were overreaching, and some were even unconstitutional. That said, they really did not affect me in the manner that liberal expansion of government does. I don't use the library, but if I did I couldn't care less if the government looks at what I read there. I've got nothing to hide in that regard. It does affect me when liberals force try to take over more control of my day to day life, and take away more of my money. These liberal policies do much more real harm to real people than the Patriot Act ever has (not defending Patriot Act in full, but just saying it is the much lesser of two evils).

I'd say I'm fairly libertarian personally, so I really don't like either party, but I always vote Republican because they are the far lesser of two evils and typically don't try to control my life like Dems... and there's actually a few decent people in the Republican party, whereas the Dems have been completely taken over by hardcore Leftists.

 

[WA_Vol]

Everyone wants to see healthcare reform, but this is not what the voters want. He's going to get beat badly during midterm elections.

 

[BeecherVol]

Everyone wants to see healthcare reform, but this is not what the voters want. He's going to get beat badly during midterm elections.

Yes, and Yes.

I think he doesn't care, he is trying to pass as many bills as he can, before he loses his congressional advantage.

 

[gsvol]

Don't ever try to tell me the ACLU stands up for my rights.

From now on I will just say "The ACLU stands up for my rights." That way it will not include you.[/QUOTE]

That's a deal but I'll say I believe you are misled.

 

[gsvol]

When we were searching for kids to adopt. We tried to adopt three black brothers, ages 8, 6 and 4. Mind you, that once a child turns 5 years old, the chances of that child EVER being adopted is about 20%.
The ACLU stepped in and said thet they wanted those boys to go to a black family and the state of FL just gave in.
Well, you guessed it, those three boys are STILL in foster homes three years later.
The ACLU is a political machine, plain and simple.

An organization that litigates to exclude the display of the ten commandments but litigates to force ceremonial muslim foot baths in public buildings should tell anyone what they are all about.

Yes, and Yes.

I think he doesn't care, he is trying to pass as many bills as he can, before he loses his congressional advantage.

A couple of more items on obamacare.

The senate and house bills have to be reconciled and passed again by both before they go to the pinko house, formerly called the white house.

This battle isn’t over, and opponents of the legislation could still win.

What people are forgetting is how narrow the margin in the House was the last time around. Speaker Pelosi won the vote for her version of health-care reform by 220 to 215. If three votes had switched, the opposition would have won 218 to 217.
---------------------------------

.............the polls do not suggest that a no vote carries electoral risks.
----------------------------

If Stupak, Cao, and one progressive flip, and nobody flips Pelosi’s way, she loses the vote. Other congressmen may reconsider their support because the tide of public opinion is running against it.
--------------------------------------

The Senate has made the stakes higher. It hasn’t made the outcome certain.

Nebraska Governor tells Nelson to keep his dirty money, his state doesn't want it.

“The last few days have made Nebraskans so angry that now it’s a matter of principle,” Gov. David Heineman told POLITICO. “The federal government can keep that money.”
------------------------------------------

“We don’t like that,” Johanns, also a former governor, said in an interview. “We just think that’s so un-Nebraskan. You know, we live out there on the prairie. It’s hot in the summer. It’s cold in the winter, and we’re kind of less-government sort of people. We don’t want a special deal.”

(Governor) Heineman added that he’s “never seen the emotional intensity on an issue that I’m seeing right now. This violated our sense of ethics.”

Add to that the fact that (according to various sources) 65 to 80% of the people of Nebraska are against Obamacare anyway.

 

[orangeblooded2]

Article makes a very valid point.





GOP lawmakers change tune on costly health plans - Yahoo! News

 

[BeecherVol]

"As far as I am concerned, any Republican who voted for the Medicare drug benefit has no right to criticize anything the Democrats have done in terms of adding to the national debt," said Bruce Bartlett, an official in the administrations of Ronald Reagan and George H.W. Bush. He made his comments in a Forbes article titled "Republican Deficit Hypocrisy."




Wrong.

If someone was gonna steal money from me, I would rather them get 1 dollar, instead of 10.

Whats in the bill, has a lot to do with it.

 

[TheDeeble]

This is a garbage bill made up of backroom dealings.

Where's the transparency Obama promised?

I hope this crap gets litigated into oblivion. It will be a monumental failure. The sad part is, I and ever other American will pay the price.

 

[Big Orange Bo]

Maybe this will help you.....



Early this morning, the Senate made history and health reform cleared its most important hurdle yet -- garnering the 60 votes needed to move toward a final vote in that chamber later this week.

This marks the first time in our nation's history that comprehensive health reform has come to this point. And it appears that the American people will soon realize the genuine reform that offers security to those who have health insurance and affordable options to those who do not.

I'm grateful to Senator Harry Reid and every senator who's been working around the clock to make this happen. And I'm grateful to you, and every member of the Organizing for America community, for all the work you have done to make this progress possible.

After a nearly century-long struggle, we are now on the cusp of making health insurance reform a reality in the United States of America.

As with any legislation, compromise is part of the process. But I'm pleased that recently added provisions have made this landmark bill even stronger. Between the time when the bill passes and the time when the insurance exchanges get up and running, insurance companies that try to jack up their rates do so at their own peril. Those who hike their prices may be barred from selling plans on the exchanges.

And while insurance companies will be prevented from denying coverage on the basis of pre-existing conditions once the exchanges are open, in the meantime there will be a high-risk pool where people with pre-existing conditions can purchase affordable coverage.

A recent amendment has made these protections even stronger. Insurance companies will now be prohibited from denying coverage to children immediately after this bill passes. There's also explicit language in this bill that will protect a patient's choice of doctor. And small businesses will get additional assistance as well.

These protections are in addition to the ones we've been talking about for some time. No longer will insurance companies be able to drop your coverage if you become sick and no longer will you have to pay unlimited amounts out of your own pocket for treatments that you need.

Under this bill families will save on their premiums; businesses that would see their costs rise if we don't act will save money now and in the future. This bill will strengthen Medicare and extend the life of the program. Because it's paid for and gets rid of waste and inefficiency in our health care system, this will be the largest deficit reduction plan in over a decade.

Finally, this reform will extend coverage to more than 30 million Americans who don't have it.

These are not small changes. These are big changes. They're fundamental reforms. They will save money. They will save lives.

And your passion, your work, your organizing helped make all of this possible. Now it's time to finish the job.

Thank you,

President Barack Obama

Blubbering, Slobbering, Follower who cannot have had any chance to read this shoved, non-transparent partisan peace of pork-filled garbage. Continue to be an uninformed follower. It is easier for you to live that way. Unfortunately it will be much harder for your children.

Other than that, Its Great!!!

 

[shootermcgavin7]

The ACLU is and always has been a communist party front group.

I disagree with a lot of their agenda, but they mostly operate through the legal system... and their good lawyers are typically involved with legit constitutional cases.


Of course they have nutjob fringe members, as any special interest group has.

 

[gsvol]

This is a garbage bill made up of backroom dealings.

Where's the transparency Obama promised?

I hope this crap gets litigated into oblivion. It will be a monumental failure. The sad part is, I and ever other American will pay the price.

Democrats ram the unconstitutional obamacare down uncle sams throat in drunken melee style.

During the general debate on the health care legislation that recently passed the Senate, Senator Max Baucus, Democrat from Montana, took to the floor of the Senate and engaged in a drunken tirade. Oblivious to the fact that he was slurring his words and mangling his sentences, Senator Baucus shouted down opponents as he let loose a rambling, and at times incoherent, tirade against those dastardly Republicans who refused to be bipartisan.

This drunk is the Chairman of the Senate Finance Committee, charged with overseeing our taxpayer dollars. As is clearly evident from this video, the less than honorable Baucus should not be in charge of a toll booth, much less have a say in the crafting of legislation that will affect every single American.

There isn't much doubt that Al Franken gained the Dims 60th seat in the senate fraudulently.

Was obamacare written by an inmate at a federal prison???

While in prison—or “forced sabbatical,” he called it—Creamer wrote a lengthy political manual, Listen to Your Mother: Stand Up Straight! How Progressives Can Win (Seven Locks Press, 2007).

The book was endorsed by leading Democrats and their allies, including SEIU boss Andy Stern—the most frequent visitor thus far to the Obama White House—and chief Obama strategist David Axelrod, who noted that Creamer’s tome “provides a blueprint for future victories.”

In the book, Creamer draws lessons from decades of experience on the radical left, including the teachings of arch-radical Saul Alinsky, and several episodes from Rep. Schakowsky’s political career. He also lays out a “Progressive Agenda for Structural Change,” which includes a ten-point plan for foisting universal health care on the American people in 2009:

“We must create a national consensus that health care is a right, not a commodity; and that government must guarantee that right.”

“We must create a national consensus that the health care system is in crisis.”

“Our messaging program over the next two years should focus heavily on reducing the credibility of the health insurance industry and focusing on the failure of private health insurance.”

“We need to systematically forge relationships with large sectors of the business/employer community.”

“We need to convince political leaders that they owe their elections, at least in part, to the groundswell of support of [sic] universal health care, and that they face political peril if they fail to deliver on universal health care in 2009.”

“We need not agree in advance on the components of a plan, but we must foster a process that can ultimately yield consensus.”

“Over the next two years, we must design and organize a massive national field program.”

“We must focus especially on the mobilization of the labor movement and the faith community.”

“We must systematically leverage the connections and resources of a massive array of institutions and organizations of all types.”

“To be successful, we must put in place commitments for hundreds of millions of dollars to be used to finance paid communications and mobilization once the battle is joined.”

Creamer adds: “To win we must not just generate understanding, but emotion—fear, revulsion, anger, disgust.”

Democrats have followed Creamer’s plan to the letter. They have claimed our health care system is in crisis despite polls showing the overwhelming majority of Americans are happy with the care they receive. They have—with the help of President Obama—circulated false horror stories about Americans dying for lack of health care and health insurance.

Adolph Hitler wrote Mein Kamph while in prison btw.

I disagree with a lot of their agenda, but they mostly operate through the legal system... and their good lawyers are typically involved with legit constitutional cases.


Of course they have nutjob fringe members, as any special interest group has.

The Brief History of the ACLU’s Communist founding and communist agenda.

“The American Civil Liberties Union is closely affiliated with the communist movement in the United States, and fully 90% of its efforts are on behalf of Communists who have come into conflict with the law.

It claims to stand for free speech, free press, and free assembly; but it is quite apparent that the main function of the ACLU is to attempt to protect the communists in their advocacy of force and violence to overthrow the Government, replacing the American flag with a red flag and erecting a Soviet Government in place of the republican form of government guaranteed to each State by the Federal Constitution…Roger N. Baldwin, its guiding spirit, makes no attempt to hide his friendship for the communists and their principles.”

When Jimmy Carter awarded Baldwin the Presidential Medal of Freedom I think that should remove all doubt about where Carter stands politically.

 

[shootermcgavin7]

The Brief History of the ACLU’s Communist founding and communist agenda.

Do you have a point here?

My point is that the ACLU typically (although not always the nuts) use the legal system to address their interpretations of the Constitution.

Not sure what your link to the Stop The ACLU does to address that point.



I'll start anyway. Suppose they are red-blooded commies. So what? Our Constitution guarantees freedom of speech and allows people of all political views to voice their opinions.
Communism is a stupid and moronic method of organizing economically; we should allow informed voters to figure this out....................not go down the road of banning speech.

 

[gsvol]

Do you have a point here?

My point is that the ACLU typically (although not always the nuts) use the legal system to address their interpretations of the Constitution.

Not sure what your link to the Stop The ACLU does to address that point.



I'll start anyway. Suppose they are red-blooded commies. So what? Our Constitution guarantees freedom of speech and allows people of all political views to voice their opinions.
Communism is a stupid and moronic method of organizing economically; we should allow informed voters to figure this out....................not go down the road of banning speech.

Then you abhor the ACLU backed hate crimes agenda that says that certain constitutionally guaranteed free speech should be prosecuted as a hate crime????


The ACLU sucks goat turds.

End of story.

Nation wide polls indicae as many as 72% of Americans oppose obamacare.

Harry Reid wrote in 383 pages to the senate version to award the states of some democrat senators and guaranteed funds to one institution in particular.

Communism is still communism any way you cut it and obamacare isn't socialism, it's communism.

Specifically, President Obama’s drive for a single payer system is the direct result of the influence of Dr. Quentin Young, a retired physician with a long history of commitment to Communism. In 1995, Dr. Quentin was among those who met in the Hyde Park home of Bill Ayers and Bernadine Dohrn to launch Obama’s political career.
---------------------------

The Medicare “reform” expands “socialism” in America, but it is an example of naked Communism at work. It is a bill put together behind closed doors and so extensive its control of the lives of Americans literally determines who lives and who dies. It will wreck the best healthcare system in the world albeit one that has its flaws.

It is authoritarianism at work, the kind we associate with regimes in Russia, China, North Korea, Cuba, Venezuela, and everywhere else Communism has been imposed on captive nations.

 

[orangeblooded2]

Blubbering, Slobbering, Follower who cannot have had any chance to read this shoved, non-transparent partisan peace of pork-filled garbage. Continue to be an uninformed follower. It is easier for you to live that way. Unfortunately it will be much harder for your children.

Other than that, Its Great!!!

Another wanna be with under 100 post trying to be a force. Who has no opinion other than to criticize and name call. I can hardly wait for the spelling and grammar critiques that all unused minds seem to lock onto has a considered form of debate.

 

[Cartervol]

It's becoming fairly clear there is no one in Washington fit to lead. The American people need to march on Washington and physically throw these idiots out of office and change the locks behind them. This stuff isn't funny at all, they're really crippling the country. Economic collapse isn't far away, pass Obamacare and it gets closer by the day. How in the world do such idiots get elected to run the country? The people should be ashamed of who is in office. They're a disgrace to this country.

 

[shootermcgavin7]

Then you abhor the ACLU backed hate crimes agenda that says that certain constitutionally guaranteed free speech should be prosecuted as a hate crime????

Of course. I try to avoid being hypocritical.

Unlike citizens who would try to ban a "communist" group (while I am not aware of any mainstream group, it is clearly legal under the Bill of Rights).

 

[OrangeYankee]

I had to skip ahead on page 7 becasue my lunch is about to end but I wanted to ask this:

From the get go my feelings have been that insurance has completely screwed the market up. Akin to having our car insurance pay for new tires and oil changes. Costs would sky rocket. Why can't we get health insurance to do what it was originally intended to do: cover only the catestrophic things and pay for everything else out of pocket. If we do that, I guarantee you healthcare costs would plummit. I already do that to an extent (hearing aids are not covered) and my hearing tests with a private audiologist are a fourth of what they are going to an ENT who has heavy insurance ties. Why? Because there is no red tape he has to cut through to squeeze out a few dollars and it is way easier and cheaper on both involved.

As far as free market... the way the health insurance industry is today there is no free market as long as we use it for a buffet of all our ailments all you can eat style.

 

[gsvol]

Another wanna be with under 100 post trying to be a force. Who has no opinion other than to criticize and name call. I can hardly wait for the spelling and grammar critiques that all unused minds seem to lock onto has a considered form of debate.

Whether he has one post or ten thousand means nothing, the content of the post is what we are supposed to address according to board rules and just general rules of good manners.

Your post reveals more about your own mind set that anything.

It also speakes well of his maturity that he didn't take your little bait.

FWIW, I find his post to be more insightful than any post of yours I've ever read. :hi:

Of course. I try to avoid being hypocritical.

Unlike citizens who would try to ban a "communist" group (while I am not aware of any mainstream group, it is clearly legal under the Bill of Rights).

Who tried to ban them???

They on the other hand would gladly deny free speech to those who don't kowtow to their agenda.

I had to skip ahead on page 7 becasue my lunch is about to end but I wanted to ask this:

From the get go my feelings have been that insurance has completely screwed the market up. Akin to having our car insurance pay for new tires and oil changes. Costs would sky rocket. Why can't we get health insurance to do what it was originally intended to do: cover only the catestrophic things and pay for everything else out of pocket. If we do that, I guarantee you healthcare costs would plummit. I already do that to an extent (hearing aids are not covered) and my hearing tests with a private audiologist are a fourth of what they are going to an ENT who has heavy insurance ties. Why? Because there is no red tape he has to cut through to squeeze out a few dollars and it is way easier and cheaper on both involved.

As far as free market... the way the health insurance industry is today there is no free market as long as we use it for a buffet of all our ailments all you can eat style.

I doubt anyone dislikes insurance companies more than me but pardon me if I say obamacare would be a great financial boon to insurance companies.

Back to who does or does not support obamacare;

Certainly not the people of Nebraska.

If Governor Dave Heineman (who opposes obamacare) challenges Nelson for the Senate job, a new Rasmussen Reports telephone survey shows that Heineman would get 61% of the vote while Nelson would get just 30%.
-------------------------------------

Just 17% of Nebrasaka voters approve of the deal their Senator made on Medicaid in exchange for his vote.

Overall, 64% oppose the health care legislation, including 53% who are Strongly Opposed.

Fifty-six percent (56%) believe that passage of the legislation will hurt the quality of care and 62% believe it will raise costs.
--------------------------------

When survey respondents were asked how they would vote in Nelson blocks health care reform, 47% still pick Heneman while 37% would vote to keep Nelson in office.
-----------------

............55% of Nebraskans disapprove of Nelson’s performance, with only 40% approving. Interestingly, that number remains exactly the same among men and women. It’s almost as bad with independents (54%), and every age demographic has a majority disapproving of Nelson.
-------------------------

Here’s an interesting internal: among those uninsured, 62% disapprove of Nelson after his vote on ObamaCare. In fact, fewer uninsured approve of Nelson (37%) than insured (39%).

Heineman, on the other hand, is a mirror of Nelson’s discontent. Disapproval doesn’t get above 34% in any age bracket, and remarkably is at 0% among 18-29 year old voters, and only 4% among thirtysomethings.

Even Democrats like him, 44%/40%, while independents approve of Heineman 67%/26%.

Such are the wages of pork, and of selling out.

Nelson won’t have to answer for it until 2012, but he may want to rethink that vote on its next pass through the Senate.

Then off course Nebraskans might be able to recall him in 2010.

 

[countrypk]

The passage Obamacare - the greatest example of cognitive dissonance our country will ever experience.

Most everyone agrees that our healthcare system in its current form is neither efficient nor operated in a fiscally prudent manner. More than a few if not most people believe that many of the contributory factors to these inefficiencies and excessive costs are the result of our Federal government's involvement with healthcare.

Without any evidence that our Federal government has ever operated anything in its history efficiently or economically, the majority of our elected Federal representatives are willing to suspend disbelief and pass bills that they believe will make the healthcare system operate more efficiently and economically.

Incredible!

 

[OrangeEmpire]

It is true that many liberal do-gooders thing they know whats best for others. This is my biggest criticism of liberals. Quite honestly, the conservatives crave power just as much as the liberals do and have no more respect for the American people than liberals (I am speaking of politicians now, not the rank and file).

It is frustrating to me when someone refers to conservatives as freedom lovers and liberals and freedom haters. Every American loves freedom, and they should. American principles and values are built on the bedrock of freedom, liberals and conservatives just have different ideas on how to run the government, but we all agree on the freedom thing.

Try to remember that when the government tries to take away freedoms that the much vilified ACLU is the front line of defense against such actions (this should not be read as an endorsement of the ACLU).

No democrat in this country loves freedom.

All of their actions prove this.

 

[gsvol]

No democrat in this country loves freedom.

All of their actions prove this.

More than cowards, they are traitors as well.

I wish I could say republicans are so much better but I can't, given the facts.

Republicans are cowards too, until they can do a much better jop of preventing the democrats from selling us down the river, they are nothing also.