Dollars and Sense

[tnrunner13]

where is your $20 million figure coming from? i believe that, outside of dooley and chaney (i think), if the current coaches get other jobs, we can deduct their new salary from the buyouts? also, you are aware that we wouldn't have to pay all of that money in one year? it would be stretched over however many years the contract called for the buyout to last. so, that $20 million (again, not sure how accurate that number is) could actually be more like a $6 million difference per year over a few years, which would certainly be covered by the difference from ticket sales, concessions, etc.

 

[Titan&Volfan4life]

I'm not spending anything. Let me ask you a question.

If you had 3 billion dollars in the bank. What would YOU give to help the VOLS right now? Plus by donating to a school you get an almost double write off for your taxes. What would YOU do? Well there are people out there that love UT, and have billions, and love to not give it to uncle sam.

Well my friend I'll simply say this to 2 of your posts...

1...I do NOT believe that you know anyone that's a big money booster or that said booster said they would pay whatever it costs to get rid of CDD and all our coaches.

2...You quite obviously know nothing of the tax LAWS or you would know that any business or person will have a LIMIT on the amount of money they can donate to any charity, church or anything else like our Tennessee football program and still get their tax writeoff.

Most wealthy people won't just throw money around especially if that that amount of money can NOT be used as a tax writeoff.

Once the LIMITS are reached on tax writeoffs normally the expected money vanishes until the next year.

FYI it's well known that taxes on both businesses and personal income of the wealthy ARE going to go UP and the number of things that can be used as a tax writeoff ARE going to go DOWN so that guarantees less money for charitable donations.

It's also known that the barak oDUMBa healthcare garbage IS making both healthcare costs and insurance costs go UP considerably and our big boosters that ARE also business owners WILL have to adjust many things so it's very likely that donations to Tennessee football will NOT be as large as in the past.

Also it's known that new tax laws ARE coming since the Presidential election and for the near future the ONLY thing that businesses and the wealthy can do is to speculate or guess what's coming since the details won't be known until after the new tax LAWS are put into place and NOT knowing with any certainty always makes businesses and the wealthy become even more tight fisted and conservative with their money.

The OP is actually correct unfortunately but most on here know very little about finances, business or taxes as pertaining to charitable donations and the tax writeoffs.

I hope this helped you learn a little and you'll try to take all factors into consideration when formulating opinions or on your own finances.

I hope we get the huge HOMERUN hire that we really need but I seriously doubt it based on what is now known and on what we know is coming and the details that are not known as yet.

VFL...GBO!!!

 

[slovog]

i don't believe this decision will be completely about money although it is a big factor. The dollars we are talking about is way above most of our understanding, especially mine. However, revenue is not only ticket sales. Boosters will give less, anything orange will be in less to no demand, restaurants and hotels will suffer as well as countless other impacts financially that we don't see. Stop blaming Hamilton for this mess. Yes he made some bad hires and bad contract decisions, however NO ONE was beating down our door to get this job and with all that was in the black cloud over us, the contract had to be favorable to the coach. You have to have something of substance to have leverage. We had nothing but potential. Bottom line, are we making noticable progress in the 3rd season? No. Are we possibly moving backwards in multiple areas? Yes. Next coach please.

 

[volinexile17]

Don't think you can/should count the salaries of new coaches in figuring the cost changing coaching staffs. Having a coaching staff is a fixed cost unless we eliminate the football program. Maybe a difference in the bottom line between the staffs or the money a coaching search takes, but that would probably be negligible - especially in comparison to the cost of keeping Dooley. All that really matters is the buyouts for current coaches.

So, basically ... it's gonna be a lot less than $20 mil.

 

[tnlizard]

Face it. We dont have every piece of info. We have only one opinion.:dance: And you better be ready to except the outcome. Nothing out of this will be perfect.

 

[deckerkd]

I don't like the product we have just like everyone else but Hamilton's inept ability to write a contract favorable to the University has us in a mess and it keeps getting worse.

The way I see this now is it will cost in excess of 20 million dollars to change coaches.

How you ask?

buyout to Dooley

buyout to Sal

to Chaney

replacement coach

new coordinators

new assorted assistants.

FWIW: If for some reason we happen to win the next 2 games and go to the Liberty Bowl does Derek Dooley's contract give him an automatic extension? Probably so.

If this were 10 years ago and money were no object it'd be one thing. Today is a much different story. I know, there will be a furry of people lash out that "We have rich donors that can afford it." Sure, spend someone else' money. They may be hanging onto it waiting for Obama and the 99% ers to take it away.

The University and the state are up to their eyeballs in broke. Someone has got to do a better job of managing business with these out of control sports contracts.

I don't envy Dave Hart at all. He's got a pissed off fan base demanding a firing, a checkbook with negative numbers in it, and a price tag to fix the problem ridiculously high. Yes, I realize there is a price to pay for empty stands, however, the University shares the SEC tv contract money and the money in the stands to them may be relatively small. In years past the Trustees for the University were mainly Knox County and surrounding area business people. They had an interest in the attraction that brought 100,000 people to the city for the weekend. Not the case now. Most of the Trustees are from Nashville west and could care less about how much a fan spends in Knoxville on game day weekend.

You have some valid points; however, you are missing some also. First, yes empty seats do cost money. But they are just a sign of a much more costly issue. Television contracts aren't going to keep paying if no one is watching. And we are not guaranteed an equal SEC share of network funding especially if no one is watching. Also, UT football merchandise and more importantly local merchants who make the majority of their profits from these football games and from Tennessee football merchandise. So the stands are a relatively small loss of revenue but when attached with everything that follows, it is a loss of millions. Where as a good hire at this point may be expensive, but it would renew excitement in UT football. Without that, business is a bust in Knoxville. Hart can not afford to keep Dooley! He is gone

 

[tri_vol]

6 at home games times 2 million additional revenue per game = 12 Million Dollars

12 Million in lost revenue < 20 million to change coaching staffs.

And I don't watch Fox News, they are too liberal to suit me.

So what happens next year when Dooley is just as bad. Now the school is facing a 24 million dollar loss. It's better to cut your losses and correct the course.

 

[KYSkipper]

Don't think you can/should count the salaries of new coaches in figuring the cost changing coaching staffs.

No it's not. When we hired Lame Kiffin our salary package for coaches and assistants went way way up. Derek Dooley and his assistants are around a half price sale given what we paid the Kiffins, Ogeron, and the rest of that crew. There isn't a lot of sense in changing coaches if we make a lateral move. You all say you want a "Home Run Hire". A home run hire as in a Gruden would probably cost for his salary alone around 5 million. That is a million more than we are paying Dooley/Sal/Chaney. That could easily climb to 9 million total for a new crew.

Without that, business is a bust in Knoxville. Hart can not afford to keep Dooley! He is gone

If you look at the board of trustees it isn't what it was 25 years ago. It's made up of people from all over the state most of whom aren't from Knoxville and don't give a rip about the area businesses.

A second point is times have evolved quite a bit. 25 years ago a UT home game meant a heck of a lot in revenue to Gatlinburg and other area businesses such as West Town Mall. That is not the case today. While the game day crowd is large, the regular crowd is larger and a lot of the regular crowd stays out of Knoxville on game days because of traffic. Long and short, aside from a few bars on the strip and a few t-shirt sellers over all it doesn't have the impact it once did.

So what happens next year when Dooley is just as bad. Now the school is facing a 24 million dollar loss. It's better to cut your losses and correct the course.

There are no guarantees with a new coach. Kiffin sounded great coming in. How'd that work out?

Dooley sounded great coming in. How'd it work out so far?

One issue is the product on the field, another issue on attendance is the economy. A third is changing times in general. 30 years ago UT got on TV maybe 4 times a year. The other games were either delay broadcasts or not on TV at all and it wasn't a lot of fun watching it on a fuzzy 19" tv. Obviously things have changed. When the stadium was smaller and the area less developed it was easier to deal with. More development, more crowds, larger stadium and it's become a zoo to get to the game. Park 5 miles away and wait on a bus to get to and from, walk 3 miles, pay $30 to park, sit in traffic 2 hours in and 2 hours out. I'm saying it makes sitting in a recliner watching the game on a 72" tv with a beer on the table and a steak on the grill much more appealing.

Then there's families with all they do on weekends these days. Kids have ball games, practice, scouts, meetings, etc. You can do the kids things and make it home in time for the game. You can't do the kid's things and make it to Knoxville.

Yes, a better product would attract more people but I'm not sure it 100% overcomes all the things that have crept into people's lives that have made attendance decline.

 

[volinexile17]

No it's not. When we hired Lame Kiffin our salary package for coaches and assistants went way way up. Derek Dooley and his assistants are around a half price sale given what we paid the Kiffins, Ogeron, and the rest of that crew. There isn't a lot of sense in changing coaches if we make a lateral move. You all say you want a "Home Run Hire". A home run hire as in a Gruden would probably cost for his salary alone around 5 million. That is a million more than we are paying Dooley/Sal/Chaney. That could easily climb to 9 million total for a new crew.

If you look at the board of trustees it isn't what it was 25 years ago. It's made up of people from all over the state most of whom aren't from Knoxville and don't give a rip about the area businesses.

A second point is times have evolved quite a bit. 25 years ago a UT home game meant a heck of a lot in revenue to Gatlinburg and other area businesses such as West Town Mall. That is not the case today. While the game day crowd is large, the regular crowd is larger and a lot of the regular crowd stays out of Knoxville on game days because of traffic. Long and short, aside from a few bars on the strip and a few t-shirt sellers over all it doesn't have the impact it once did.



There are no guarantees with a new coach. Kiffin sounded great coming in. How'd that work out?

Dooley sounded great coming in. How'd it work out so far?

One issue is the product on the field, another issue on attendance is the economy. A third is changing times in general. 30 years ago UT got on TV maybe 4 times a year. The other games were either delay broadcasts or not on TV at all and it wasn't a lot of fun watching it on a fuzzy 19" tv. Obviously things have changed. When the stadium was smaller and the area less developed it was easier to deal with. More development, more crowds, larger stadium and it's become a zoo to get to the game. Park 5 miles away and wait on a bus to get to and from, walk 3 miles, pay $30 to park, sit in traffic 2 hours in and 2 hours out. I'm saying it makes sitting in a recliner watching the game on a 72" tv with a beer on the table and a steak on the grill much more appealing.

Then there's families with all they do on weekends these days. Kids have ball games, practice, scouts, meetings, etc. You can do the kids things and make it home in time for the game. You can't do the kid's things and make it to Knoxville.

Yes, a better product would attract more people but I'm not sure it 100% overcomes all the things that have crept into people's lives that have made attendance decline.

You are mistaken. Mike Hamilton maintained that the budget for the staff was fixed. We have no idea if that is still true under Dave Hart, but what UT has been willing to pay for a staff has been relatively consistent.

Total cost under Fulmer in 2008: $4.7 mil.
Total cost under Kiffin in 2009: $5.3 mil.
Total cost under Dooley in 2012: $4.975 mil.

I doubt UT will suddenly double it's budget for a football staff. You're also assuming a new HC means an entirely new staff, which I don't think is a given.

To your last point, kids have always had ballgames. TVs aren't a new invention. Knoxville hasn't changed that much since 2004 when Neyland was packed every Saturday. Further, plenty of teams across the nation sell out every home game or at least come close. It we win, UT will to.

 

[KYSkipper]

You are mistaken. Mike Hamilton maintained that the budget for the staff was fixed. We have no idea if that is still true under Dave Hart, but what UT has been willing to pay for a staff has been relatively consistent.

Total cost under Fulmer in 2008: $4.7 mil.
Total cost under Kiffin in 2009: $5.3 mil.
Total cost under Dooley in 2012: $4.975 mil.

I doubt UT will suddenly double it's budget for a football staff. You're also assuming a new HC means an entirely new staff, which I don't think is a given.

To your last point, kids have always had ballgames. TVs aren't a new invention. Knoxville hasn't changed that much since 2004 when Neyland was packed every Saturday. Further, plenty of teams across the nation sell out every home game or at least come close. It we win, UT will to.

Why believe anything Mike Hamilton said then or has said, or will say? He's most of this problem right now.

There's no way you go from having a head coach with a 4 million dollar salary (Fulmer) to one with a 2 million dollar salary (Dooley) and your employee salary cost remain similar or "Fixed". Saban makes in excess of 4 Million. What you are saying is we can hire a new coach of that caliber and new assistants for less. I doubt it.

Secondly It would take a complete idiot to take the UT Job and not clean house of assistants. I think it painfully evident the defensive coaching staff needs cleared out. You are wanting to hire a New Guy with a New System that Wins. He's going to want his own staff not hand me downs that may or may not be to his liking for the position. In part the downfall of Phillip Fulmer started when Coach Cut left and later when he was forced to accept The Clawfence. The Kiffin deal is what we are looking for in a replacement except one that's more loyal and doesn't bail after a year. We want a coach who comes in with all his package of assistants ready to run his show.

There have been a lot of changes since 2004. Not just Knoxville. The economy has drastically changed. In 2004 it cost me maybe $12 in gas to drive to Knoxville and back. Today it's in excess of $50. Even though $50 is still not much of a issue to a lot of people, to others it is. FWIW, I thought in 2004 we were fussing over Phillip and threatening his job because the stands weren't completely full. After 50 something years Bristol quit selling out 5 or 6 years back. HD TV is newer than 2004 as well particularly in rural areas.

 

[volinexile17]

1. I think you are confused about what the market actually is for college coaches. Only 5 make $4 mil or more. There are plenty of very good coaches making between $1.5 - $3.5 mil.

College Football's Top 50 Coaching Salaries: Are They Paid What They Should Be? | Bleacher Report

2. You can ignore the numbers I gave you, but the fact remains that the staff cost was $4.7 in 2008 and is $4.975 now. Google if you want to see it yourself. Assistants get paid more now, but I doubt UT will be paying more than $6 mil for a staff.

3. I think we have some capable assistants on staff. A change would be expected at the coordinator positions, but I'd like to see Graham and Hinshaw stick around. Also, if we hired a Saban guy like Kirby Smart, I wouldn't be surprised in Ansley was retained.

4. Bristol is not college football. Those two things are completely unrelated - the fan bases are not nearly comparable. HD, gas prices, really comfy couches and man caves - don't care. That doesn't change the fact that Bama, UGA, UF, LSU, etc are selling out. The gas prices are the same, the TVs are the same.

How do you explain that? People show up because they have competitive teams. No reason UT fans wouldn't show up if we were competitive.

 

[Dool-Aid]

UT having a horrible season is absolutely crippling the city. its a college town so when we suck they dont bring as much people in the city for outside, and people that live there dont feel like wasting the money, wasting the time, dealing with the horrible parking, and dealing with the away team's demeaning fans. so in short, yes its horrible for the city, and for the program.

 

[drodvol]

NO!!! It dosent matter how you try to twist the end of the season, its over! You can not dismiss everything over the last 3 years bc he beats Vandy and Kentucky and prob some mid major team in a bowl.

It can be dismissed. The OP has a valid point. Theres one scenario that so many are refusing to think about. "The return of Dooley for 2013" However slight, it is a possibility. If that does become reality then it should come with a new DC. Fix the D and we win. :dance:

 

[bleedorange0037]

I don't like the product we have just like everyone else but Hamilton's inept ability to write a contract favorable to the University has us in a mess and it keeps getting worse.

The way I see this now is it will cost in excess of 20 million dollars to change coaches.

How you ask?

buyout to Dooley

buyout to Sal

to Chaney

replacement coach

new coordinators

new assorted assistants.

FWIW: If for some reason we happen to win the next 2 games and go to the Liberty Bowl does Derek Dooley's contract give him an automatic extension? Probably so.

If this were 10 years ago and money were no object it'd be one thing. Today is a much different story. I know, there will be a furry of people lash out that "We have rich donors that can afford it." Sure, spend someone else' money. They may be hanging onto it waiting for Obama and the 99% ers to take it away.

The University and the state are up to their eyeballs in broke. Someone has got to do a better job of managing business with these out of control sports contracts.

I don't envy Dave Hart at all. He's got a pissed off fan base demanding a firing, a checkbook with negative numbers in it, and a price tag to fix the problem ridiculously high. Yes, I realize there is a price to pay for empty stands, however, the University shares the SEC tv contract money and the money in the stands to them may be relatively small. In years past the Trustees for the University were mainly Knox County and surrounding area business people. They had an interest in the attraction that brought 100,000 people to the city for the weekend. Not the case now. Most of the Trustees are from Nashville west and could care less about how much a fan spends in Knoxville on game day weekend.

If Obama has his way they'll be losing it one way or another. May as well spend it as they see fit for a new FB coach than let Obama and Co. spend it as they see fit.

 

[localvol]

Well my friend I'll simply say this to 2 of your posts...

1...I do NOT believe that you know anyone that's a big money booster or that said booster said they would pay whatever it costs to get rid of CDD and all our coaches.

2...You quite obviously know nothing of the tax LAWS or you would know that any business or person will have a LIMIT on the amount of money they can donate to any charity, church or anything else like our Tennessee football program and still get their tax writeoff.

Most wealthy people won't just throw money around especially if that that amount of money can NOT be used as a tax writeoff.

Once the LIMITS are reached on tax writeoffs normally the expected money vanishes until the next year.

FYI it's well known that taxes on both businesses and personal income of the wealthy ARE going to go UP and the number of things that can be used as a tax writeoff ARE going to go DOWN so that guarantees less money for charitable donations.

It's also known that the barak oDUMBa healthcare garbage IS making both healthcare costs and insurance costs go UP considerably and our big boosters that ARE also business owners WILL have to adjust many things so it's very likely that donations to Tennessee football will NOT be as large as in the past.

Also it's known that new tax laws ARE coming since the Presidential election and for the near future the ONLY thing that businesses and the wealthy can do is to speculate or guess what's coming since the details won't be known until after the new tax LAWS are put into place and NOT knowing with any certainty always makes businesses and the wealthy become even more tight fisted and conservative with their money.

The OP is actually correct unfortunately but most on here know very little about finances, business or taxes as pertaining to charitable donations and the tax writeoffs.

I hope this helped you learn a little and you'll try to take all factors into consideration when formulating opinions or on your own finances.

I hope we get the huge HOMERUN hire that we really need but I seriously doubt it based on what is now known and on what we know is coming and the details that are not known as yet.

VFL...GBO!!!

Number 1. I work for a booster, and I never said "to get rid of anyone" I said to get a new coach.

To the rest. You are right there are limits in the tax law however that limit is a % of your tax liability. Plus by donating to a state funded school that % goes up.

Everything else. I'm not going to get into politics with anyone online.

 

[KYSkipper]

1. I think you are confused about what the market actually is for college coaches. Only 5 make $4 mil or more. There are plenty of very good coaches making between $1.5 - $3.5 mil.

Not confused at all.

I don't see any reason to make a lateral move or a slightly better move.

If I owned a 20 year old vehicle and decided to replace it I would have several options.

1. Buy another 20 year old vehicle: Spending a couple thousand I would get a very much used vehicle that I had no history with and had no idea of it's soundness.

2. Buy a 10 newer vehicle. Again, I'd have no history on it. I'd be taking a chance. If the price is cheap enough it's one thing, however we appear to be upside down in what we owe for our current vehicle/coach and it doesn't look like a real good deal especially if the replacement doesn't deliver.

3. Buy a brand new vehicle. It's going to be hard to afford being upside down on the existing vehicle although not completely unaffordable it would put the family in a financial bind.

4. Wait till I'm paid off and in better financial shape to buy another vehicle.

The ones wanting to fire him have this dream that Gruden is going to show up at the door when in reality we probably can't afford that and will end up with an even or only slightly better swap.

 

[volinexile17]

Not confused at all.

I don't see any reason to make a lateral move or a slightly better move.

If I owned a 20 year old vehicle and decided to replace it I would have several options.

1. Buy another 20 year old vehicle: Spending a couple thousand I would get a very much used vehicle that I had no history with and had no idea of it's soundness.

2. Buy a 10 newer vehicle. Again, I'd have no history on it. I'd be taking a chance. If the price is cheap enough it's one thing, however we appear to be upside down in what we owe for our current vehicle/coach and it doesn't look like a real good deal especially if the replacement doesn't deliver.

3. Buy a brand new vehicle. It's going to be hard to afford being upside down on the existing vehicle although not completely unaffordable it would put the family in a financial bind.

4. Wait till I'm paid off and in better financial shape to buy another vehicle.

The ones wanting to fire him have this dream that Gruden is going to show up at the door when in reality we probably can't afford that and will end up with an even or only slightly better swap.

That's a completely stupid and irrelevant analogy. I'm done with this. You can go back to re-reading Atlas Shrugged.

 

[bleedorange0037]

Not confused at all.

I don't see any reason to make a lateral move or a slightly better move.

If I owned a 20 year old vehicle and decided to replace it I would have several options.

1. Buy another 20 year old vehicle: Spending a couple thousand I would get a very much used vehicle that I had no history with and had no idea of it's soundness.

2. Buy a 10 newer vehicle. Again, I'd have no history on it. I'd be taking a chance. If the price is cheap enough it's one thing, however we appear to be upside down in what we owe for our current vehicle/coach and it doesn't look like a real good deal especially if the replacement doesn't deliver.

3. Buy a brand new vehicle. It's going to be hard to afford being upside down on the existing vehicle although not completely unaffordable it would put the family in a financial bind.

4. Wait till I'm paid off and in better financial shape to buy another vehicle.

The ones wanting to fire him have this dream that Gruden is going to show up at the door when in reality we probably can't afford that and will end up with an even or only slightly better swap.

Just as a matter of curiosity, how many people own 20 year old vehicles that aren't paid in full? IMO, anyone who owns a 20 year old vehicle should be in pretty good financial shape because they either paid about $2,500 for their car, or paid full price and haven't had to make a car payment in about 15 years.

 

[vol66]

I don't know all I need to know to make a decision, but it does seem like no one is discussing revenue from television and bowls. The SEC doled out 18 million per school last year. Not included in that is 14 million retained by the schools who participated in bowls.

I haven't seen anyone suggest that boosters are willing to do anything but put up a buy out for Dooley. This is not uncommon for college football programs or high profile college basketball programs. Guys like T. Boone Pickens want what they want.

2010-11 SEC Revenue Distribution > SEC > NEWS

The Business Of College Football - Forbes

How much revenue did your favorite Football Bowl Subdivision school take in in 2007-08? This chart will tell you &#8211; College Gridiron 365 Blog &#8211; Orlando Sentinel

 

[WhitewaterVol]

Not confused at all.

I don't see any reason to make a lateral move or a slightly better move.

If I owned a 20 year old vehicle and decided to replace it I would have several options.

1. Buy another 20 year old vehicle: Spending a couple thousand I would get a very much used vehicle that I had no history with and had no idea of it's soundness.

2. Buy a 10 newer vehicle. Again, I'd have no history on it. I'd be taking a chance. If the price is cheap enough it's one thing, however we appear to be upside down in what we owe for our current vehicle/coach and it doesn't look like a real good deal especially if the replacement doesn't deliver.

3. Buy a brand new vehicle. It's going to be hard to afford being upside down on the existing vehicle although not completely unaffordable it would put the family in a financial bind.

4. Wait till I'm paid off and in better financial shape to buy another vehicle.

The ones wanting to fire him have this dream that Gruden is going to show up at the door when in reality we probably can't afford that and will end up with an even or only slightly better swap.

You would have a better analogy if you said you had a 20 year old vehicle with a blown engine. Sure, you could replace then engine (DC) but it will cost you a lot and in the end you still have an old POS that will probably break down on you (Dooley).

It might put you in a bind but you'd be far better off to replace the busted piece of junk than to invest more $$$ into it knowing it is a piece of junk.

Dooley isn't a good coach. If you can't see that by now, you never will. 90% of high school coaches would do a better job using time outs, managing the clock, and getting the correct personnel on the field. Those are the most basic of basic football fundamentals. Dooley cannot get even the most basic things right.

You seem to be a Dooley fan and not a TN fan. Maybe you can follow him to whatever junior college he ends up at next.....

 

[oregonvol]

Dooley sounded great coming in. How'd it work out so far?

It's always nice to find that exact point where someone's arguments lose all credibility.

But hey, thanks for playing.

 

[KYSkipper]

You would have a better analogy if you said you had a 20 year old vehicle with a blown engine. Sure, you could replace then engine (DC) but it will cost you a lot and in the end you still have an old POS that will probably break down on you (Dooley).

It might put you in a bind but you'd be far better off to replace the busted piece of junk than to invest more $$$ into it knowing it is a piece of junk.

Dooley isn't a good coach. If you can't see that by now, you never will. 90% of high school coaches would do a better job using time outs, managing the clock, and getting the correct personnel on the field. Those are the most basic of basic football fundamentals. Dooley cannot get even the most basic things right.

You seem to be a Dooley fan and not a TN fan. Maybe you can follow him to whatever junior college he ends up at next.....

So we are resulting to criticizing the parable I guess. You got the point no doubt.

I am not a Dooley Fan and I wish we hadn't never got into the situation that ended up with us hiring him. However, we did.

What I am saying is the ill advised financial decisions that went into leading us to hire him may continue with his firing leading us into an even worse situation.

At this point we are still paying Phillip Fulmer are we not? If not paying him, we are still paying for that mistake. I remember them debating the athletic department financials on the Drive show a few months back. Reserve funds depleted because they were buying out coaches, lost on the Kiffin Deal, and poor sales of tickets. The operating funds were running a 2 million dollar per year deficit. While I realize that is not the Football program's fault entirely, the Football Program is a part of the whole body. They have combined the men's and women's departments to save money and in the process involved themselves in a multi million dollar lawsuit where one of the most popular coaches in the world has apparently taken the side of the plaintiff. Then there's the ones on here with the Obama budget department calculator trying to convince me this coaching change will only cost a tad over 5 million when we know 1 coaches buyout alone is 5 million plus 2 others at around 2 million each. That's 9 Million in buyouts for 3 people alone. Then there's the new crew to hire, signing bonuses as is the norm in these things, new marketing campaigns, new money allocated to fund the new guy's wishes/demands as far as operating the program goes. This isn't a cheap thing.

I'm a Tennessee fan. I want to see the Vols do well and return to their old winning ways. That said, we the fans with our unrealistic demands have helped create the mess we have now. Going back to those cars, If you could keep the old one you own running another couple years with some repairs, even costly repairs, but end up saving enough money to buy what you want in 2 years as opposed to compromising on what you can afford now would you not be better off? I don't see 1 or 2 wins a season better performance worth the price tag it would cost at this time. I don't know if they can afford 4 or 5 wins a season better performance.

 

[vols-1]

I don't see 1 or 2 wins a season better performance worth the price tag it would cost at this time. I don't know if they can afford 4 or 5 wins a season better performance.

TN just spent $200 million on renovations for God's sake!

 

[vol66]

So we are resulting to criticizing the parable I guess. You got the point no doubt.

I am not a Dooley Fan and I wish we hadn't never got into the situation that ended up with us hiring him. However, we did.

What I am saying is the ill advised financial decisions that went into leading us to hire him may continue with his firing leading us into an even worse situation.

At this point we are still paying Phillip Fulmer are we not? If not paying him, we are still paying for that mistake. I remember them debating the athletic department financials on the Drive show a few months back. Reserve funds depleted because they were buying out coaches, lost on the Kiffin Deal, and poor sales of tickets. The operating funds were running a 2 million dollar per year deficit. While I realize that is not the Football program's fault entirely, the Football Program is a part of the whole body. They have combined the men's and women's departments to save money and in the process involved themselves in a multi million dollar lawsuit where one of the most popular coaches in the world has apparently taken the side of the plaintiff. Then there's the ones on here with the Obama budget department calculator trying to convince me this coaching change will only cost a tad over 5 million when we know 1 coaches buyout alone is 5 million plus 2 others at around 2 million each. That's 9 Million in buyouts for 3 people alone. Then there's the new crew to hire, signing bonuses as is the norm in these things, new marketing campaigns, new money allocated to fund the new guy's wishes/demands as far as operating the program goes. This isn't a cheap thing.

I'm a Tennessee fan. I want to see the Vols do well and return to their old winning ways. That said, we the fans with our unrealistic demands have helped create the mess we have now. Going back to those cars, If you could keep the old one you own running another couple years with some repairs, even costly repairs, but end up saving enough money to buy what you want in 2 years as opposed to compromising on what you can afford now would you not be better off? I don't see 1 or 2 wins a season better performance worth the price tag it would cost at this time. I don't know if they can afford 4 or 5 wins a season better performance.

I know the post was not directed at me, but if I may...

You make a lot of points, many which I agree with. I agree there was gross mismanagement with Hamilton and the lawyers at UT. The bending over and getting SEXTONed was ridiculous.

The pissing match over extending Dooley's assistants contracts was a stupid move, maybe Wilcox couldn't wait to get out of here, but not extending his contract left him with no job security making it an easy decision, stupid.

Hiring Sunseri, with no DC experience and giving him that kind of money, good grief.

And on, and on...Still, is your solution to continue on this path with Dooley?

I disagree that fan expectations have led to this. Not being competitive with the teams in our division has led to this. I don't think the average fan thought we'd be beating Alabama or LSU anytime soon. I don't think anyone expected us to be a top 10 team, top 25 maybe, after 3 years.

The bottom line for me as a fan, a fan that played the game and has some experience coaching...If we had top 5 classes in recruiting over Dooley's tenure, I don't think we would have won anymore games than we have.

The bottom line financially is that when Dooley took over we were right up there at the top of the list, top 10, maybe top 6 or 8 in revenues and over the course of his employ it has dropped and this year will be worse than the rest. The schedule is going to be brutal next year and all of the best games are on the road.

I don't think they can keep going in that direction but I don't pretend to know everything either. UT was bringing in nearly 100 Million at one point, so these buyouts aren't as big when put beside the total revenue. Look at how Alabama has climbed the revenue chart under Saban.

 

[KYSkipper]

I know the post was not directed at me, but if I may...

You make a lot of points, many which I agree with. I agree there was gross mismanagement with Hamilton and the lawyers at UT. The bending over and getting SEXTONed was ridiculous.

The pissing match over extending Dooley's assistants contracts was a stupid move, maybe Wilcox couldn't wait to get out of here, but not extending his contract left him with no job security making it an easy decision, stupid.

Hiring Sunseri, with no DC experience and giving him that kind of money, good grief.

And on, and on...Still, is your solution to continue on this path with Dooley?

I disagree that fan expectations have led to this. Not being competitive with the teams in our division has led to this. I don't think the average fan thought we'd be beating Alabama or LSU anytime soon. I don't think anyone expected us to be a top 10 team, top 25 maybe, after 3 years.

The bottom line for me as a fan, a fan that played the game and has some experience coaching...If we had top 5 classes in recruiting over Dooley's tenure, I don't think we would have won anymore games than we have.

The bottom line financially is that when Dooley took over we were right up there at the top of the list, top 10, maybe top 6 or 8 in revenues and over the course of his employ it has dropped and this year will be worse than the rest. The schedule is going to be brutal next year and all of the best games are on the road.

I don't think they can keep going in that direction but I don't pretend to know everything either. UT was bringing in nearly 100 Million at one point, so these buyouts aren't as big when put beside the total revenue. Look at how Alabama has climbed the revenue chart under Saban.

When this whole mess unfolded (Kiffin leaving, everyone and their brother turning us down because we treated Phillip the way we did, and hiring Derek) I knew what would likely happen.

I never ever was a Kiffin fan. I didn't like the little twerp and had it not been for his daddy who I always felt like was running the show I wouldn't have at all been happy. That said, during that year things got accomplished. Jonathan Crompton didn't appear that he should be at Carson Newman let alone Tennessee until the Kiffin group got ahold of him. I don't remember which game, one of the early ones there was a little problem on defense, it got fixed by the next weekend. Kiffin's crew, personality aside, could coach. They could identify problems and knew how to fix it. Dooley does not. This 12 men on the field crap, IMO would have been fixed by Monty Kiffin in 5 minutes. He'd had 20 people on the sidelines counting heads if it took it. 3 years later and Dooley doesn't have that fixed. He's in over his head no doubt.

That said, this money is a big damn problem. It's one of the reasons I believe these big time Football and Basketball programs ought to be separated from the Universities and allowed to operate on their own like a farm system for the NFL if you will. Pay whoever or whatever they want to pay

A good portion of the fault on this mess lies with the idiot politicians who force schools to operate 200 some odd ding dong sports that loose millions of dollars causing athletic departments to loose money instead of making money for the school which could be used to offset the costs of providing an education. Somehow we loose sight of the fact that the school's primary mission is to produce doctors, engineers, business people, scientists, and such.

Too many kids/parents are struggling hard to pay for or finance educations and it's a sad state of affairs to have to raise their costs to cover the screw ups of the athletic departments and politicians and for what purpose? Bring more people to bars in Knoxville on Saturday?

I used to and still do fish tournaments. In my younger, single, less responsibility days I spent a lot of money I didn't really have to spend trying to figure out how to be a "Pro Fisherman". Somewhere along the way I had enough sense to look at the guys fishing the top 150 and figure out that most of them ended up divorced and broke. I still fish tournaments but I keep it in perspective. I make enough money to buy a boat every year and fish all over the place if I chose, but I'd rather see my family have a nice home and enjoy the things they enjoy.

I don't trust these political type people in any capacity with budgetary figures. I don't trust their ability to operate a business at all otherwise we wouldn't be in the messes we are currently in.

If Dooley can be replaced with a top notch man and staff and it not cost a kid trying to earn an education or his/her family trying to pay for it I'd be all for it. If it's going to additionally tax others, then I'm against it.

FWIW Vol66, I don't disagree with you in principal. I understand this mess has cost people money, it's cost the University money, and it's cost private businesses money in the Knoxville area. Dooley needs to go. That said, our fan base has a tendency to spend other people's money very freely. We had a good thing going with Phillip Fulmer and it should have been left as was. A lot of people learn that lesson in business and in life when they over extend themselves. It's painful when they do and it takes a while to straighten out.