Dopenhagen was a failure for Nobama.

[gsvol]

AGW is a political farce.

 

[Trubblshooter]

Dopenhagen was a failure for Nobama.

where is dopenhagen ?

 

[jackaro]

Not the best moment for Obama. He got seriously disrespected by China, and the meeting accomplished nothing. But that was really the expectations of the meeting anyway.

I am on the fence about this global warming thing, mostly because I do not understand the science behind it. I still have about a year and a half before I get my degree in Chemical Engineering, maybe I can look at the evidence when I learn a little more and can form an opinion.

The fact is that the world goes through stages of warming and cooling, I do not see how a current warming trend can be linked to the activities of man. But I still think we should try to reduce harmful emissions, if only to protect the health of the people.

One thing that really gets to me are the projections that the (insert vulgar insult here) Al Gore comes up with. Projections are notoriously unreliable, but he uses them to promote his sky is falling rhetoric.

 

[gsvol]

Dopenhagen was a failure for Nobama.

where is dopenhagen ?

Typo, I meant to say Hopenhagen, that's just a hop skip and a jump south of climatechangenhagen.

The cap and fraud fiasco is all about buffoons.

The real scandal is that Europol, the European law enforcement agency, has uncovered a massive fraud by large-scale, organized crime in Europe's carbon trading markets.

Rob Wainwright, director of Europol's serious crime squad, told the Telegraph it has "endangered the credibility" of carbon trading.

Police estimate over $7 billion was stolen in just 18 months and say criminals may next target Europe's electricity and gas markets.

Up to 90% of all carbon trading in some European countries -- supposedly to help lower global greenhouse gas (GHG) emissions -- may have been fraudulent.

The U.K., France, Spain, Holland and Denmark were hit. Denmark, according to the Guardian, passed emergency legislation related to the fraud just as the UN climate change meeting in its capital of Copenhagen was getting underway.
...........................................

Carbon markets -- led by Europe's Emissions Trading Scheme (ETS) -- are already worth over $100 billion annually. Carbon trading -- whose earliest corporate backers were Enron's fraudsters because they saw an easy way to make money -- could be worth $3 trillion annually within a decade, twice the value of today's oil markets.

Without some governmental authority forcing businesses into the scheme, the whole market isn't worth a plug nickel!!!!!

 

[miamicane]

nwo must fail!! killuminati!!

 

[gsvol]

Not the best moment for Obama. He got seriously disrespected by China, and the meeting accomplished nothing. But that was really the expectations of the meeting anyway.

I am on the fence about this global warming thing, mostly because I do not understand the science behind it. I still have about a year and a half before I get my degree in Chemical Engineering, maybe I can look at the evidence when I learn a little more and can form an opinion.

The fact is that the world goes through stages of warming and cooling, I do not see how a current warming trend can be linked to the activities of man. But I still think we should try to reduce harmful emissions, if only to protect the health of the people.

One thing that really gets to me are the projections that the (insert vulgar insult here) Al Gore comes up with. Projections are notoriously unreliable, but he uses them to promote his sky is falling rhetoric.

CO2 is NOT a polutant, that's all you need to know to see through the scam.

 

[jackaro]

CO2 is NOT a polutant, that's all you need to know to see through the scam.

I am more concerned about sulfur emissions, and other stuff like that. Acid rain is caused by CO2 and sulfur emissions, and smog can cause serious respiratory problems (of course, I am a smoker so I probably do not have much credibility on that one).

 

[gsvol]

I am more concerned about sulfur emissions, and other stuff like that. Acid rain is caused by CO2 and sulfur emissions, and smog can cause serious respiratory problems (of course, I am a smoker so I probably do not have much credibility on that one).

The acid rain hoax has become urban legend just like DDT.

I admint sulfur emissions aren't good but we have almost eliminated them by now.

Again, repeat after me;

CO2 is NOT a polutant.

 

[TennTradition]

I am more concerned about sulfur emissions, and other stuff like that. Acid rain is caused by CO2 and sulfur emissions, and smog can cause serious respiratory problems (of course, I am a smoker so I probably do not have much credibility on that one).

I'm not an expert in acid rain, but I would suggest that CO2 is not really a factor in it. CO2 does dissolve (a bit) into water in the atmosphere, but it doesn't form a very strong acid - it just seems that the water/CO2 ratio isn't high enough to hydrate enough CO2 to really drive a lot of reaction. Now, CO2 adsorption into bodies of water and then acidification of that water might be an issue. But, I'm thinking SOx is by far the bigger driver of acid rain. As for smog, I'm not sure that CO2 would play a large role either...it would seem that CO would be more likely to participate in the ozone cycle leading to smog rather than CO2.

On a related note, GS, as you point out, sulfur emissions are way down...but I would suggest this is because they were driven down, not because it just happened. And, GS, CO2 may not be a classical pollutant, but I don't see how that would explain why it can't cause warming.

 

[MG1968]

I'm far more concerned about the high levels of smug.

As for Obama being "seriously disrespected by the Chinese", what did you expect? The world loves Obama, but love has nothing to do with respect and the world certainly has no respect for him.

 

[miamicane]

dam why do they want so much freaking power...they are already rich..screw the nwo

 

[jackaro]

I'm far more concerned about the high levels of smug.

As for Obama being "seriously disrespected by the Chinese", what did you expect? The world loves Obama, but love has nothing to do with respect and the world certainly has no respect for him.

"High levels of smug", I liked that, funny stuff. I really did not expect more out of the Chinese, it is unsurprising that this happened. But it also worries me a great deal, the rise of China is scary. They have no respect for anything or anybody, especially the health and safety of their own people.

I really do not know what can be done to get their respect, but they need to be reminded in the strongest possible terms that they need us as much, or more, than we need them. The United States and China have become so dependent on each other it is absurd, but they seem to have the upper hand in things.

You are absolutely right, as Machiavelli said, it is better to be respected than loved. Maybe I should send Obama a copy of "The Prince" for Christmas, or possibly "The Art of War".

 

[gsvol]

I'm not an expert in acid rain, but I would suggest that CO2 is not really a factor in it. CO2 does dissolve (a bit) into water in the atmosphere, but it doesn't form a very strong acid - it just seems that the water/CO2 ratio isn't high enough to hydrate enough CO2 to really drive a lot of reaction. Now, CO2 adsorption into bodies of water and then acidification of that water might be an issue. But, I'm thinking SOx is by far the bigger driver of acid rain. As for smog, I'm not sure that CO2 would play a large role either...it would seem that CO would be more likely to participate in the ozone cycle leading to smog rather than CO2.

On a related note, GS, as you point out, sulfur emissions are way down...but I would suggest this is because they were driven down, not because it just happened. And, GS, CO2 may not be a classical pollutant, but I don't see how that would explain why it can't cause warming.

Glad we can generally agree on most of the facts on this topic.

Three things;

1.

Now, CO2 adsorption into bodies of water and then acidification of that water might be an issue.

Very doubtful, at any rate the radical enviro claim that acidification is killing coral reefs is an outright lie and they know it.

We do need to learn more about interaction of oceans and CO2. Since oceans cover 70% of the Earth, if you do the math, human emmissions of CO2 and oceanic CO2 levels equate to something like monkey farts contributing to noise levels in a thousand square mile rain forest.

I'm not even sure CO2 added to water would 'acidify' that water. (what is the actual scientific reality?)


2.

On a related note, GS, as you point out, sulfur emissions are way down...but I would suggest this is because they were driven down, not because it just happened.

It happened because we have been cleaning up our act for over a half century with cost effectivemethods, and generally with rational approaches to the problem.

We need a separtate thread on what to do with solid or liquid, toxic wastes.

I would respect your views on the specifics of toxic wastes since you are working on you PHD in chemistry but I do have some practical insight into the problems of the disposal of those wastes.

Would you be surprised if you found that we have in America places that make Love Canal look like Walden Pond?

The EPA is about as helpful to the problem as say Al Capone would be to prohibition.

No! The EPA is so full of confirmation bias, overanxious to kowtow to power hungry big government, irresponsible profit greedy multinational corporatism, and ruling elitist funded NGOs with money to burn and BS proclamations that bear little if any relationship to reality that one must face the fact that what they are really doing is driving the small time businesses out of business and small farmers off their lands.

The EPA would rather tax cow farts than do the damned job it is commissioned to be doing! They would rather attack a pig farm than a chemical factory. They would rather stop a farmer from preventing a creek from taking over his bottomland than any number of other more worthile efforts and in many cases using the 'endangered species act', just flat out confiscate peoples property without due compensation as is mandated in the US Constitution!!!

When a guy who worked as a personal assistant to three governors in two states can't even get a simple reply from the EPA, not to mention some response to a particular problem then you can realize the EPA is FOS and part of the problem rather than part of the solution.

3.

And, GS, CO2 may not be a classical pollutant, but I don't see how that would explain why it can't cause warming.

CO2 is essential to life on Earth.

CO2 would be a factor but minescule compared to other factors.

To say that it could be the magic trigger that would cause either runaway global warming or runaway climate change is not only ludicrous, it's lunatic fringe. (or perhaps fraud for profit.)

 

[BeecherVol]

When I was in school, which wasn't that long ago, CO2 was a good thing.

Must be the same people that say eggs are good for,,,, I mean, bad for.... I mean, good for.....

Just eat the chicken.

 

[IPorange]

CO2 is a good thing, in most circumstances. Water can kill, you know.

 

[BeecherVol]

CO2 is a good thing, in most circumstances. Water can kill, you know.

As long as plants, and trees accept it, and give me oxygen in return.

I will take my chances.

 

[gsvol]

CO2 is a good thing, in most circumstances. Water can kill, you know.

It can rust your pipes, I never drink that stuff. :whistling:

As long as plants, and trees accept it, and give me oxygen in return.

I will take my chances.

You can't have it made in the shade if your tree dies. :thumbsup:

 

[TennTradition]

I'm not even sure CO2 added to water would 'acidify' that water. (what is the actual scientific reality?)

CO2 can definiteyl be hydrated by water and form carbonic acid. Because the CO2 concentration in the atmosphere is about 385 ppm or so, rain water is slightly acidic. At a CO2 partial pressure of 3.85E-4 atm, the acidity of water is about a pH of 5.6. This is not a strong acid. If you increased the partial pressure to 1000 ppm, then the pH would still only be something like 5.4 or so. So, CO2 is not a strong driver of 'acid rain' at all. For reference, sodas have a partial pressure of CO2 of several atmospheres, which leads to a pH of between 3 to 4, quite a bit more acidic (neutral pH is 7, with lower pHs being more acidic).

 

[gsvol]

CO2 can definiteyl be hydrated by water and form carbonic acid. Because the CO2 concentration in the atmosphere is about 385 ppm or so, rain water is slightly acidic. At a CO2 partial pressure of 3.85E-4 atm, the acidity of water is about a pH of 5.6. This is not a strong acid. If you increased the partial pressure to 1000 ppm, then the pH would still only be something like 5.4 or so. So, CO2 is not a strong driver of 'acid rain' at all. For reference, sodas have a partial pressure of CO2 of several atmospheres, which leads to a pH of between 3 to 4, quite a bit more acidic (neutral pH is 7, with lower pHs being more acidic).

Thanks for your excellent informed input.

I think we can all get a better perspective on the issue with more real information and far less disinformation.

Can we safely say that water in the environment can never reach a pH neutral level because of naturally occuring CO2??

Can we say water needed to sustain life that is slightly acidic is far more desirable than water that is slightly alkaline??

Couple of questions, at what pH level do fish tend to bite best?? (no one worry whether fish feel pain or not)

What is the difference between carbonic and carbolic acids?

 

[gsvol]

(In my best Paul Harvey voice)- THE REST OF THE STORY.

 

[TennTradition]

Thanks for your excellent informed input.

I think we can all get a better perspective on the issue with more real information and far less disinformation.

Can we safely say that water in the environment can never reach a pH neutral level because of naturally occuring CO2??

Can we say water needed to sustain life that is slightly acidic is far more desirable than water that is slightly alkaline??

Couple of questions, at what pH level do fish tend to bite best?? (no one worry whether fish feel pain or not)

What is the difference between carbonic and carbolic acids?

It's hard to say what pH water in the environment can reach because it can be location dependent. There are natural alkaline materials out there that will increase the pH of water at the same time CO2 and naturally occuring nitrogen compounds are acidifying the water. I think that it would be fair to say that rain water will naturally be slightly acidic (but too much sulfur oxides, for example, can over-acidify the water).

I honestly have no idea whether life is better sustained with slightly acidic or slightly basic water. My guess is that it depends on what life we are talking about.

I can never get fish to bite, so I can't really do any experiments to test out any hypotheses I might have for when fish bite best.

Carbonic acid is just a hydrated CO2 molecule, so it's chemical formula is H2CO3 (H2O + CO2). Carbolic acid is much bigger, and contains a benzyl ring, so it can be toxic/carcinogenic. It's chemical formula is C6H5OH. It is a benzene ring with one hydrogen atom substituted with a hydroxyl (OH), or alcohol, group.

 

[gsvol]

It's hard to say what pH water in the environment can reach because it can be location dependent. There are natural alkaline materials out there that will increase the pH of water at the same time CO2 and naturally occuring nitrogen compounds are acidifying the water. I think that it would be fair to say that rain water will naturally be slightly acidic (but too much sulfur oxides, for example, can over-acidify the water).

I honestly have no idea whether life is better sustained with slightly acidic or slightly basic water. My guess is that it depends on what life we are talking about.

I can never get fish to bite, so I can't really do any experiments to test out any hypotheses I might have for when fish bite best.

Carbonic acid is just a hydrated CO2 molecule, so it's chemical formula is H2CO3 (H2O + CO2). Carbolic acid is much bigger, and contains a benzyl ring, so it can be toxic/carcinogenic. It's chemical formula is C6H5OH. It is a benzene ring with one hydrogen atom substituted with a hydroxyl (OH), or alcohol, group.

Since nitrogen is 70% of our atmosphere, do you think we should be alarmed about nitrogen emissions??

Carbolic acid is toxic to mange mites, don't know if it causes mites to get cancer but it will kill their dumb butts, that's all I need to know.

Wait now,

I honestly have no idea whether life is better sustained with slightly acidic or slightly basic water.

You're throwing me a curve there.

Acidic, alkaline or absolutely pure H2O?

Ain't them the basics??

OK, if you are thinking of going fishing, here's what you do, go out to a small steam that has plenty of minnows and without casting your shadow on the stream or letting the minnows see your presense, peep out from behind a tree (assuming all the trees havn't been eliminated by lack of CO2), cast upon the water small objects like sand or broken twigs of a weed, if the minnows are hitting, the fish will be biting.

The only problems then are determining the species of fish you are targeting, the proper location and correct bait!!

The fish determine where they want to be.

The fish determine what they want to eat.
(availibilityof food, habitat and habititual inclinations contribute to those factors)

Been doin' much of fishin'?

 

[TennTradition]

My comment about sustaining life was just to say that there may be some life that like slightly acidic conditions, some that like slightly basic. We can live off slightly acidic water, but our blood is slightly basic....

As for fish...I will have to try the minnow trick. I usually do a lot more fishing than catching!

 

[gsvol]

My comment about sustaining life was just to say that there may be some life that like slightly acidic conditions, some that like slightly basic. We can live off slightly acidic water, but our blood is slightly basic....

As for fish...I will have to try the minnow trick. I usually do a lot more fishing than catching!

Still, you lose me when you use the term 'basic'.

We cannot live off water that is alkaline, not for long.

Here is the epitome of the "cranial anal inversion syndrome."

Maxine Clark is a sicko of the first order!!!

Ignorance is one thing but when it is compounded by exceptional stupidy it is a menace to society.

 

[TennTradition]

Still, you lose me when you use the term 'basic'.

We cannot live off water that is alkaline, not for long.

Here is the epitome of the "cranial anal inversion syndrome."

Maxine Clark is a sicko of the first order!!!

Ignorance is one thing but when it is compounded by exceptional stupidy it is a menace to society.

My point is that there are many forms of life. Surely there are some that thrive in basic/alkaline environments.
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