Dumb baseball questions.

#52
#52
Business said:
I disagree with you guys here.

When a player knows his role and the role is described to a T, then they will do better at said job.

Would you say a leadoff hitter could give him team just as much production batting in the 4th hole? That leadoff position, like a closer, if a defined role where you know your job and are comfortable in it.

I just think when you have guys that know they are Specialty (leftys), Long relief, Short relief, set-up men, and closers they just do their job better.

I'm sorry but taking the mound in the 6th with two on is much different than coming in one up in the bottom of the ninth. Closers are a different breed, they live off the fact that they have the nastiest stuff in the pen and they live off the ninth inning adrineline rush.

In theory it sounds good but I don't think it would fly too long in practice. Like I said in the post above it's a 162 game season you have to be systematic with your players and define their roles. I'm a firm believer that sucessful Teams and successful businesses are those in which the team's or entity's jobs are defined in great detail.
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Ah, the great adrenaline rush of coming in with a three-run lead in the ninth inning against a bad team and the bottom of their order coming up...

I agree with your larger point, about defining roles on a team. I think that's largely what's made Bobby Cox so successful; he clearly defines roles for everybody on the team and he sticks to them doggedly -- even when it makes you grind your teeth because sticking to the script is clearly a bad move. But I think that, in general, they've taken specialization way too far. If your closer is the guy with the nastiest stuff out in the bullpen, the kind of pitcher who strikes out two guys an inning, then isn't he exactly the kind of guy you need to bring into a one run-lead with the bases loaded in the 7th inning, when you desperately need a strikeout? That's when the "save" really happens; that's when you need him the most. But because he's been conditioned that coming in before the 9th inning is practically an insult -- thanks entirely to the notion that racking up "saves" is what a closer does -- you can't use him then.

I would argue that any practice which produces Joe F. Borowski as the American League save leader one year is one in which the system has entirely taken over the process of bullpen management, and the actual talents and skills of the pitchers in that bullpen are pretty obviously beside the point.
 
#53
#53
Fine Vol said:
Last night Boston had a man on 2nd and 3rd with 1 out. The batter was no one special but the Backs walked him to make bases loaded. The man who batted next was o for 2 and he was no great hitter so why walk a guy with one out to load the bases if the next batter is just average?

Could it have been a lefty pitchervs type deal?
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And don't even get me started on walking the bases loaded. Idiots.
 
#55
#55
Any one explain why Ray Knight carried a lap top with him to calculate percentages of rain drops and the air quality level when considering a double switch in every game he coached as the Reds manager?
 
#56
#56
Vercingetorix said:
Ah, the great adrenaline rush of coming in with a three-run lead in the ninth inning against a bad team and the bottom of their order coming up...

I agree with your larger point, about defining roles on a team. I think that's largely what's made Bobby Cox so successful; he clearly defines roles for everybody on the team and he sticks to them doggedly -- even when it makes you grind your teeth because sticking to the script is clearly a bad move. But I think that, in general, they've taken specialization way too far. If your closer is the guy with the nastiest stuff out in the bullpen, the kind of pitcher who strikes out two guys an inning, then isn't he exactly the kind of guy you need to bring into a one run-lead with the bases loaded in the 7th inning, when you desperately need a strikeout? That's when the "save" really happens; that's when you need him the most. But because he's been conditioned that coming in before the 9th inning is practically an insult -- thanks entirely to the notion that racking up "saves" is what a closer does -- you can't use him then.

I would argue that any practice which produces Joe F. Borowski as the American League save leader one year is one in which the system has entirely taken over the process of bullpen management, and the actual talents and skills of the pitchers in that bullpen are pretty obviously beside the point.
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I guess we'll have to agree to disagree and I have no problem doing that because it is obvious you know your baseball. You also stick to your guns and I like that too.

I just think over a course of a 162 game schedule that players will perform better when they are watching a game and even in the bullpen they do not have to get the call from Cox, Francona, etc. before they are mentally ready to come into a game.

Also there is a big difference in what Cox and Francona do when the DH is applied. I don't even want to start on how much harder a NL managers job is compared to an AL managers.
 
#59
#59
Who is a better pitcher? A guy who changes his speed and location like crazy OR a pitcher that can bring massive heat every pitch but does not have the movement?

Wakefield= movement,varied speed
????????= Speed and heat
 
#60
#60
Fine Vol said:
Who is a better pitcher? A guy who changes his speed and location like crazy OR a pitcher that can bring massive heat every pitch but does not have the movement?

Wakefield= movement,varied speed
????????= Speed and heat
Click to expand...
If your fastball don't have any movement to it the ball will be leaving the park in a hurry regardless of how hard it is thrown.
 
#61
#61
Fine Vol said:
Who is a better pitcher? A guy who changes his speed and location like crazy OR a pitcher that can bring massive heat every pitch but does not have the movement?

Wakefield= movement,varied speed
????????= Speed and heat
Click to expand...

VKB is exactly right. You can throw upper 90's and if it doesn't have much movement you will get crushed.

Your question is one that doesn't really have an answer. The main thing a pitcher needs to do is keep the batter off balance. Pitchers who have the same arm angle and same arm motion on every pitch are deadly. When Johan Santana throws his change up, in theory, his actions are supposed to look exactly like his low to mid 90's fastball.

When the batter triggers and is expecting 90's and gets a fluttering change they are out on their front foot and either rolling over the ball to SS or poking it towards the right side. Either way Santana has taken away the hitter's lower half and the best that can come is a duck fart over the infield which is what makes great hitters great.

In saying all of that location is the main thing. You can have movement and nasty pitches but if you are leaving the ball up Major League hitters are going to feast. While many pitching coaches stress it there is no better tangible example than the Braves' 90's pitching staff and Leo Mazzone. Glavine and more so Maddux made pitching an artform in regards to location.

Also through the course of a 162 game season some nights you will see a guy that is just feeling it and can rare back and use brute force. I remember watching a game Joba Chamberlin came in the 8th against the O's and threw maybe 15 pitches and recorded 2 strike outs and a weak dribbler to the 2nd baseman, all fastballs. The only ball that was touched was that weak groundball. Chamberlin naturally throws a heavy fastball.

I could talk days on pitching. Hope that helped some, it actually just confused you more.

An extra bonus: A funny YouTube about throwing hard and changing speeds.

Twins Carpool
 
#62
#62
Business said:
VKB is exactly right. You can throw upper 90's and if it doesn't have much movement you will get crushed.

Your question is one that doesn't really have an answer. The main thing a pitcher needs to do is keep the batter off balance. Pitchers who have the same arm angle and same arm motion on every pitch are deadly. When Johan Santana throws his change up, in theory, his actions are supposed to look exactly like his low to mid 90's fastball.

When the batter triggers and is expecting 90's and gets a fluttering change they are out on their front foot and either rolling over the ball to SS or poking it towards the right side. Either way Santana has taken away the hitter's lower half and the best that can come is a duck fart over the infield which is what makes great hitters great.

In saying all of that location is the main thing. You can have movement and nasty pitches but if you are leaving the ball up Major League hitters are going to feast. While many pitching coaches stress it there is no better tangible example than the Braves' 90's pitching staff and Leo Mazzone. Glavine and more so Maddux made pitching an artform in regards to location.

Also through the course of a 162 game season some nights you will see a guy that is just feeling it and can rare back and use brute force. I remember watching a game Joba Chamberlin came in the 8th against the O's and threw maybe 15 pitches and recorded 2 strike outs and a weak dribbler to the 2nd baseman, all fastballs. The only ball that was touched was that weak groundball. Chamberlin naturally throws a heavy fastball.

I could talk days on pitching. Hope that helped some, it actually just confused you more.

An extra bonus: A funny YouTube about throwing hard and changing speeds.

Twins Carpool
Click to expand...
Thanks good post, that gives me a better feel for the overall theory of how pitching works.:salute:
 
#63
#63
Business said:
VKB is exactly right. You can throw upper 90's and if it doesn't have much movement you will get crushed.

Your question is one that doesn't really have an answer. The main thing a pitcher needs to do is keep the batter off balance. Pitchers who have the same arm angle and same arm motion on every pitch are deadly. When Johan Santana throws his change up, in theory, his actions are supposed to look exactly like his low to mid 90's fastball.

When the batter triggers and is expecting 90's and gets a fluttering change they are out on their front foot and either rolling over the ball to SS or poking it towards the right side. Either way Santana has taken away the hitter's lower half and the best that can come is a duck fart over the infield which is what makes great hitters great.

In saying all of that location is the main thing. You can have movement and nasty pitches but if you are leaving the ball up Major League hitters are going to feast. While many pitching coaches stress it there is no better tangible example than the Braves' 90's pitching staff and Leo Mazzone. Glavine and more so Maddux made pitching an artform in regards to location.

Also through the course of a 162 game season some nights you will see a guy that is just feeling it and can rare back and use brute force. I remember watching a game Joba Chamberlin came in the 8th against the O's and threw maybe 15 pitches and recorded 2 strike outs and a weak dribbler to the 2nd baseman, all fastballs. The only ball that was touched was that weak groundball. Chamberlin naturally throws a heavy fastball.

I could talk days on pitching. Hope that helped some, it actually just confused you more.

An extra bonus: A funny YouTube about throwing hard and changing speeds.

Twins Carpool
Click to expand...
A good changeup is the best pitch in baseball IMO. Mario Soto made a living off of 2 pitches, the heater and change. It was just so good that if you knew it was coming you couldn't hit it and if you were guessing fastball, you would look like a little leaguer up there at the plate.
 
#64
#64
Why is the catcher the one who decides the best pitch to throw? I though the pitcher knows the batters better.
 
#65
#65
Fine Vol said:
Why is the catcher the one who decides the best pitch to throw? I though the pitcher knows the batters better.
Click to expand...

If you are a good catcher then you know the hitters better. A lot of times in Minor League Baseball the pitcher is the one who calls the pitches if not the manager from the dugout. Remember the pitcher has the ultimate say by shaking off pitches, so a lot of times he will just shake the catcher off until he gets to the pitch he wants so really the pitcher is calling the game....sometimes that is a mistake....see Bull Durham.
 
#66
#66
OrangeWilly said:
If you are a good catcher then you know the hitters better. A lot of times in Minor League Baseball the pitcher is the one who calls the pitches if not the manager from the dugout. Remember the pitcher has the ultimate say by shaking off pitches, so a lot of times he will just shake the catcher off until he gets to the pitch he wants so really the pitcher is calling the game....sometimes that is a mistake....see Bull Durham.
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I guess it also lets the catcher set up better.
 
#67
#67
also, it's much easier for the catcher to hide the signals than the pitcher... Wouldn't do much good for the pitcher to hold up his forefinger and point to the outside.

Only chance a batter gets of seeing signs is if he has a runner on second stealing signs or he looks down at the catcher. If he gets caught with either of those, there is a good chance he's about to get the middle finger pitch.
 
#68
#68
volfanbill said:
also, it's much easier for the catcher to hide the signals than the pitcher... Wouldn't do much good for the pitcher to hold up his forefinger and point to the outside.

Only chance a batter gets of seeing signs is if he has a runner on second stealing signs or he looks down at the catcher. If he gets caught with either of those, there is a good chance he's about to get the middle finger pitch.
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That's when you start the third sign is the real sign, business.

or...

1 Change-up
2 Fastball
3 Curve

We used to have a system in High School where the pitch was called depending upon how the catcher held his mitt. He'd throw down signs but they were meaningless. It was pretty smooth.
 
#69
#69
Business said:
That's when you start the third sign is the real sign, business.

or...

1 Change-up
2 Fastball
3 Curve

We used to have a system in High School where the pitch was called depending upon how the catcher held his mitt. He'd throw down signs but they were meaningless. It was pretty smooth.
Click to expand...

obviously i never went nearly as far as you in baseball, but I remember being able to steal some signs from the catcher. Not saying it's right, but I'm also saying it's still done on a semi regular basis. A lot of times it is blatantly obvious which sign (1st, 2nd, 3rd, etc) is the real one. A simple tug on the pants, helmet adjustment, etc could help the batter know what was coming. Don't think I could have ever figured out how a catcher was holding his mitt though.
 
#70
#70
volfanbill said:
obviously i never went nearly as far as you in baseball, but I remember being able to steal some signs from the catcher. Not saying it's right, but I'm also saying it's still done on a semi regular basis. A lot of times it is blatantly obvious which sign (1st, 2nd, 3rd, etc) is the real one. A simple tug on the pants, helmet adjustment, etc could help the batter know what was coming. Don't think I could have ever figured out how a catcher was holding his mitt though.
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Sometimes all the deception isn't even worth it. Just rare back and throw it. I might have played through college but I sucked man, I'm telling you. I got by on my smarts alone. I'd put together something special once a year but not very consistently.
 
#71
#71
As a batter who would you rather face down the stretch? Jonathan Papelbon or Mariano Rivera?
 
#72
#72
OrangeWilly said:
If you are a good catcher then you know the hitters better. A lot of times in Minor League Baseball the pitcher is the one who calls the pitches if not the manager from the dugout. Remember the pitcher has the ultimate say by shaking off pitches, so a lot of times he will just shake the catcher off until he gets to the pitch he wants so really the pitcher is calling the game....sometimes that is a mistake....see Bull Durham.
Click to expand...

if you're a good catcher it's your job to know the hitters better. it takes a lot of pressure of the pitcher as long as he can throw it to where the catcher wants.
 
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