Ethnic cleansing.

[gsvol]

This argument is ridiculous. Every group had some level of culpability, ....

If that is true then why were only Serbians prosecuted in the world court in the Hague? (where a number died while incarcerated.)

And why is the invesitation into human organ harvesting and marketing going nowhere?

 

[Souce]

So does this do it? Can we finally say categorically with definitive proof that gs is absolutely a racist?
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[gsvol]

.

Who is your avatar?

I know you have some personal experience on this topic but may I offer some background reading?

Diana Johnstone’s Fools Crusade (2002);

In the introduction to "Fool's Crusade", Johnstone puts forward the standard liberal narrative of Yugoslavia:

Yugoslavia was a "prison of peoples" where the Serbs oppressed all the others. It was destroyed by the rise of an evil leader, Slobodan Milosevic, who set out to create a "Greater Serbia" by eliminating other peoples in a process called "ethnic cleansing". Those other peoples sought to escape, by creating their own independent states. The Yugoslav army, actually Serbian, invaded them. In Bosnia, the invading Serbs tried to drive out the Muslims, who wanted to perpetuate an exemplary multi-ethnic society. The Serb ethnic cleansing killed 200,000 unarmed Muslims while the international community looked on and even prevented the Muslims from arming in self-defense. At Srebrenica, the United Nations allowed the Serbs to commit genocide. Only U.S. bombing forced Milosevic to come to the negotiating table at Dayton. The resulting agreement brought peace and democracy to multi-ethnic Bosnia. However, the international community had failed to save the Albanian majority in Kosovo from apartheid. In 1998 Madeleine Albright warned that NATO must intervene to keep Milosevic from "doing in Kosovo what he could no longer get away with in Bosnia". In January 1999, Serbian security forces massacred defenseless civilians in the Kosovo village of Racak, awakening the NATO governments to the need to act to stop genocide. After the turning point of Racak, the Serbs were summoned to peace negotiations in Rambouillet, in France. Milosevic stubbornly refused to negotiate. NATO had no choice but to start bombing Yugoslavia. Masses of Albanians were deliberately driven out according to a preconceived plan called "Operation Horseshoe". Finally, Milosevic gave in, and NATO liberated the Kosovars from their oppressors. Conclusion: from now on, humanitarian intervention constitutes a principal mission for NATO, as the military arm of an international community henceforth committed to protection of human rights.

After presenting this version of what took place, Johnstone says, "Almost everything about this tale is false."

I have several more in depth analyses but I'll stop for now, she goes into great detail about how all this came about.

 

[gsvol]

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Dreaming of Bucksnort?? That's interesting.

From the beginning;

Swans Commentary: Diana Johnstone's "Fools' Crusade", by Louis Proyect - lproy04

As Malcolm X once said, the victim was turned into the criminal.

In September of 1991, over 120 Serbs living in the town of Gospic were abducted from their homes and murdered. It was an act calculated to have the same effect among Serbs as the Deir Yassin massacre in Palestine. They would no longer be safe in Croatia. Croatian human rights activists told Johnstone in 1996 that this was the first major massacre of civilians in the Yugoslav civil wars. Unlike Srebrenica or Racak, Gospic never became part of the litany of atrocities in the western news media or journals of "conscience."

In 1997 a disgruntled Croatian ex-cop named Miro Bajramovic decided to tell the world what really happened in Gospic. He said that the Croatian Interior Ministry sent paramilitaries to spread terror among the region's 9,000 Serbs. Johnstone quotes him as follows:

"The order for Gospic was to perform ethnic cleansing, so we killed directors of post offices and hospitals, restaurant owners and many other Serbs. Executions were performed by shooting at point-blank range. We did not have much time. The orders from headquarters were to reduce the percentage of Serbs in Gospic."

The International Criminal Tribunal (ICT), which went to all sorts of lengths to bring Milosevic to justice, has been lackadaisical about Croatian war crimes. After some of the Croatian soldiers who committed war crimes at Gospic came forward to present testimony to the ICT, they were not given adequate protection even after receiving daily death threats and having their cars firebombed. One of them, Milan Levar, was murdered by an explosion in the front yard of his Gospic home.

In June of 1999 Croatian courts acquitted 6 soldiers of war crimes committed at Gospic, including Bajramovic. In light of this, it is highly revealing that the chief Tribunal prosecutor Carla Del Ponte has decided that Croatian courts can render justice in the prosecution of war crimes. Alas, this has been the pattern all along. When Serbs react to murder, they are charged with "aggression."

Then too, the Croatians 'disappeared' many thousands of Slovenians from their public data bases, thus they were not able to access any public services and had to leave Croatia and return to Slovenia to start over.

I onced asked a Slovenian who had fought against the Serbs for Slovenian independence; 'what do you think of America's policy in Kosovo?'

As tears welled up in his eyes he said to me; "You know the moslems cut your head off if you don't become a moslem?"

 

[gsvol]

This one is a race issue.
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No it is not a race issue!

The issues (among others) are public relations and public perception.

Swans Commentary: Diana Johnstone's "Fools' Crusade", by Louis Proyect - lproy04

Unfortunately, "multicultural" Bosnia was largely a myth. By 1992, Croatian militias had already driven Serbs out of Herzegovina in an early act of ethnic cleansing that once again was largely ignored by the western media. As for Izetbegovic, the darling of Rieff and other western progressives, he was under no illusions. In a 1994 speech, he said, "Multicultural togetherness is all very well, but -- may I say it openly -- it is a lie! We cannot lie to our people or deceive the public. The soldier in combat is not dying for a multinational coexistence..."

Somehow, Izetbegovic's statement and the arrival of 5,000 former Afghanistan fighters in Bosnia escaped Rieff's attention, who continued to press for military action in order to prevent "genocide" in Bosnia. The Serbs were compared not only to the Nazis, but to the Khmer Rouge as well. In the course of his agitation for an imperialist rescue, he kept repeating the unverified figure of 200,000 dead Muslims. Former State Department official George Kenney finally tracked it down to Bosnian information minister Senada Kreso, who first circulated the figure -- hardly an unbiased source. Afterwards Kenney tried to come up with a more reliable amount, based on the Red Cross and other less politicized sources. For instance, a Stockholm-based research institute estimated that there were between 30 and 50 thousand casualties during the course of the civil war, but this included all sides. After concluding his survey, Kenney observed:

"In the words of the writer David Rieff, 'Bosnia became our Spain', though not for political reasons, which is what he meant, but rather because too many journalists dreamed self-aggrandizing dreams of becoming another Hemingway."
------------------------------

In January and February 1993, the French-based Médecins du Monde used the ITN pictures as part of a vast publicity campaign costing $2 million that resulted in the distribution of 300,000 posters throughout France. Half of them showed Milosevic side by side with Hitler, accompanied by the caption, "Speeches about ethnic cleansing, does that remind you of anything?" Bernard Kouchner, former head of Médecins sans Frontières, was an ex-CP'er who became an outspoken advocate of "humanitarian interventions." His tireless efforts on behalf of NATO beneficence earned him the top spot as UN administrator of Kosovo in 1999.

It didn't take long for the US press to exploit these themes themselves. Pulitzer Prizes were awarded to reporters who could come up with the most grizzly Serb atrocity tale. First on line at the trough were Newsday's Roy Gutman and the New York Times's John Burns who won a joint award in 1993. David Rohde of The Christian Science Monitor picked up his Pulitzer in 1995. All of them filed reports that were riddled with the kinds of errors that got Jayson Blair fired from the newspaper of record on May 11, 2003. In retrospect, it seems that the Big Lie on behalf of the imperialist crusade against the Serbs was certain to enhance one's journalistic career rather than torpedo it.

Rohde got his award for "discovering" a mass grave near Srebrenica. Not speaking a word of Serbo-Croat, he told his readers that he found what amounted to a smoking gun: a human femur and tibia scattered among the area delineated within US satellite photos. How did he find this needle in a haystack? Like the New York Times's Judith Miller, he tells us that a little birdie told him: "I had the locations of the graves marked on a map...which I got from a US intelligence source."

Look, I roomed for a year with an intelligence Serbo-Croatian linguist, I've forgot more about Yugoslavia than you will ever know.

Furthermore I'm getting tired of your continual personal insults born of ignorance if not stupidity.

BTW, the NY Slimes fired their Yugoslav correspondent of thirty years at the time because he wouldn't go along with their narative because it was misleading if not entirely false.

But then the Slimes won pulitzers for covering up the Ukrainian genocide that you falsely call a famine.

 

[JTrainDavis]

So the Dutch peacekeepers stood watch while your boogeymen killed all the men in Srebrenica, and then the Serbs came to save the day, the Dutch turned the city over to the Serbs, and everyone who was there put together a massive tall tale about the Drina Corps massacring said men.

You are truly a sad individual.
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[emainvol]

I thought i had seen it all, and then gsvol cited Diana Johnstone.

 

[gsvol]

So the Dutch peacekeepers stood watch while your boogeymen killed all the men in Srebrenica, and then the Serbs came to save the day, the Dutch turned the city over to the Serbs, and everyone who was there put together a massive tall tale about the Drina Corps massacring said men.

You are truly a sad individual.
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Well maybe if I'm sad you're sick.

You keep producing pictures and narative without any source to verify your stance. (although I give you credit for admitting, at least privately, that there was a lot that went on behind the scenes that the public has little if any knowledge of, from an international sense.)

If you read a few of my posts you will see some of what led up to the Srebrenica situation.

More on that:

Swans Commentary: Diana Johnstone's "Fools' Crusade", by Louis Proyect - lproy04

Fast-forwarding a couple of years we discover that Janez Jansa, the darling of the German peace movement, had gone through a remarkable transformation that would anticipate Joschka Fischer's. After the former anti-militarist icon became Slovenia's defense minister, he oversaw the clandestine import of weaponry into his country, most of which was sold illegally to Croatia.

When Croatian nationalism exploded in the 1980s, there was very little to inspire leftists. The modern movement saw itself as fighting for the recognition of the "rights" of the medieval Kingdom of Croatia, which had been absorbed by Hungary in 1102. It was always torn between the Serb revolutionary nationalist movement of the late 1800s and the Hapsburg empire, which always sought a Slavic outpost to pursue its ambitions. When the Hapsburgs ended up on the losing side in WWI, it made the choice easier for the Croat nationalist leaders. By becoming part of the new nation of Yugoslavia, they would avoid the heavy reparations imposed by Versailles.

After Hitler invaded Yugoslavia, Croatia was detached from the country. While it lost portions of the Adriatic coast to Italy, it was awarded the territory of Bosnia-Herzegovina. Under Ustashe rule, Croatia set out to develop a racially pure state. On May 14, 1941, over 700 Serbs were rounded up in Glina and taken to the local Orthodox Church. After the doors were locked, Ustashe gunmen killed everybody inside. The total number of Serbs who died in such fashion will probably never be known, but it is at least 700,000.

It is, therefore, not surprising that Serbs began to demand protection from the federal government after Tudjman demonstrated an affinity for the Ustashe. What is surprising, however, is the willingness of some Marxists to regard this as Serb expansionism.

 

[JTrainDavis]

The massacre at Srebrenica is common knowledge. Your attempts to skew it to fit your bigoted view are laughable.

 

[therealUT]

That bird is a liar.

Brian Fellows, April 13, 2002

.

 

[CSVol]

.

I actually laughed outloud.

 

[gsvol]

I thought i had seen it all, and then gsvol cited Diana Johnstone.

Anything is better than the NYSlimes narative, (parrotted by the alphabet {dis}information bureau aka ABC,CBS,CNN,NBC and FOX.)

If you were to believe the pulitzer winners at the Slimes you would still believe there was no genocide in the collectivization of the Ukraine and that the Roosevelt cooperatives spelled the future of agriculture in America.

 

[Spartacavolus]

Pretty neat situation, i believe up around Bihac, before the Bosnian/Croat alliance...the Bosnians were fighting the Croats, while at the same time, as they didn't have heavy guns, paying the Croats to fire at Serb positions.

I ran into Owen Wilson in Taj one day.

 

[JTrainDavis]

I ran into Owen Wilson in Taj one day.

Great.

 

[gsvol]

The massacre at Srebrenica is common knowledge. Your attempts to skew it to fit your bigoted view are laughable.

What a coincidence, 'common' will be reading 'poetry' at the white house.

One thing you can't get around, Kosovo has been purged of Serbians, another way of saying it has been ethnically cleansed.

ps; you are yet to provide one authoritative source documenting the supposed Srebrenica massacre and no matter the number killed, they were responding to widespread atrocities being done by the mujahadeen who were allied with osama bin laden and we fought on their side of the war ultimately.

 

[JTrainDavis]

http://www.srebrenica-report.com/Srebrenica_Book.pdf


http://www.srebrenica-report.com/docs/UN-1993-1.pdf

Dig in.

Theres a great little book, Srebenica : A Record of a War Crime, it can be had at a reasonable price in paperback.

 

[therealUT]

you are yet to provide one authoritative source

 

[milohimself]

.

EL OH EL
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[gsvol]

I thought i had seen it all, and then gsvol cited Diana Johnstone.

Actually I cited Louis Proyect. (who is reviewing Johnstone.)

Here I'm citing Edward S. Herman. (who is reviewing Peter Brock.)

The huge irony that Brock reveals so clearly is that the media co-belligerents, pushing relentlessly for more aggressive action, supposedly in the interests of stopping ethnic cleansing and killing, played into the hands of parties with a political agenda that assured and produced far more ethnic cleansing and killing than might have taken place without their bellicosity and war propaganda service.
----------------------------------

Brock has a detailed and convincing deconstruction of the claims of rape camps and rape as a Serb military tactic and exclusive (chapter 5). While certainly never denying Serb rapes, he shows that there is not the slightest evidence that Serb rapes were more numerous or organized than those of Bosnian Muslim or Croatian forces. He points out that the documentation of Serb rape victims is more extensive and of better quality than that of victims of Serbs, despite the sizable resources put into collecting evidence of the latter. The Serb data just never could attract the interest of the pack (and the same was true of the pack’s treatment of Serb dossiers of war crimes and prison camps in which Serbs were victims). The bias confused the media—Paul Lewis writing in the New York Times on “Rape Was Weapon of the Serbs” (Oct. 20, 1993) noted that a UN report had identified “800 victims by name,” but Lewis failed to mention that they were Serb women. The estimates of 50,000 or 20,000 rape victims of Serbs were based on no evidence whatsoever, and the belief that rape was a special Serb crime rested strictly on the overwhelming political bias of the pack and superior public relations and propaganda activity of the Croats and Bosnian Muslims. (A January 1994 UN report evaluating all the documentation on rapes, excluding evidence from the Serbs, listed 126 confirmed victims. This finding did not interest the media.)
-----------------------------

Brock also has a very good discussion of the famous photo of Fikret Alic, taken at the Trnopolje transit camp in August 1992, another fine illustration of the quest for denigration of the enemy and the lack of scruple of Western reporters and media. He shows that the three British reporters, two from Independent Television News (ITN) and one from the Guardian, sought out the uniquely emaciated man among the camp residents, and carefully arranged for a photo that made it look as if Alic was enclosed in a fenced prison, the reporters having deliberately placed themselves behind four strands of rusted and sagging barbed wire, strung haphazardly between two posts, with a thin chicken wire mesh hanging beneath, with Alic on the other side. “The cameramen and layout editors cropped the photos of Alic so that the three or four strands of barbed wire were emphasized.” There was no barbed wire fence around the camp, which was a transit facility and not even a prison encampment, and the refugees in the camp were even free to leave.


But the Fikret Alic picture was quickly seized upon by the Western media, and juxtaposed with pictures of Belsen and Auschwitz, and the media featured this “death camp” with frenzied indignation and thoroughgoing dishonesty. Compelling evidence by Thomas Deichmann that the photo was a propaganda fraud led to a journalistic bloodbath: “The reactionary attacks from pack-journalism’s interventionists commenced with fury and gusto,” and led to a libel suit and bankruptcy of the British magazine Living Marxism that had published Deichmann’s article. The suit was lost by Living Marxism not on the ground that the facts in the article were wrong but rather that it had not been proved that there was an intent to deceive—the huge deception, which happened to fit both the biases of the reporters, editors and Western establishment, was inadvertent!
--------------------------------------

Brock notes that there were dissenters from party line pack journalism, but he shows that these were quickly attacked and marginalized, in a familiar process. This is the “media cleansing,” that permitted the triumph of “dirty reporting.” Brock himself, having written an article critical of the already closed party line media coverage back in 1993 (“Dateline Yugoslavia: The Partisan Press,” Foreign Policy, Winter 1993-1994), was harshly assailed by members of the pack, and the publisher of his article was also put under pressure and threatened for this deviationism. George Kenney, a former State Department official working on the Balkans, who had quit because of insufficient U.S. intervention in the ongoing wars, changed his views and became a serious critic of the party line. Kenney, like Brock, was quickly subjected to nasty attacks and dropped by the BBC and U.S. mainstream media as a commentator on the Balkans struggle. Even Lt. General Michael Rose, the UNPROFOR commander in Sarajevo, was subjected to slashing attacks by pack members, who resented his frequent confutations of pack disinformation, and who, as campaigners for the Bosnian Muslims, were angry at the failure of UNPROFOR to bomb the Serbs (see Brock’s crushing analysis of Peter Jennings’ biased, ignorant and nasty attack on Rose--“The Peacekeepers—How the UN Failed in Bosnia,” ABC, April 24, 1995, at pp. 175-6; and on Jennings’ and ABC’s journalistic abuses more broadly, p. 173 ).

Perhaps the most interesting case was that of David Binder, who writes a Foreword to Brock’s book under review here, and who was the most experienced and knowledgeable New York Times reporter working in the Balkans in the 1980s and 1990s. Binder, however, was not a party liner, having witnessed and reported on the Kosovo Albanians attempts to drive Serbs out of Kosovo in the 1980s and who recognized that important elements of that community were striving for ethnic purification. But with the firming up of the party line in the 1990s his insistence on sometimes reporting items putting the Bosnian Muslims or Kosovo Albanians in a bad light was looked upon with disfavor by his editors. In one notorious case discussed by Brock, Binder wrote an article based on the testimony of numerous qualified UN and military insiders that pointed to the Bosnian Muslims as the source of the bomb that killed mainly Bosnian Muslim civilians in Sarajevo in the Markale market bombing of February 5, 1994, but which helped sell more aggressive NATO actions against the Serbs. The Times refused to publish the article, which forced Binder to resort to a Swiss newspaper, Die Weltwoche and the journal Foreign Policy (“Anatomy of a Massacre,” Winter 1994-95).


Eventually Binder was removed from reporting on the Balkans in favor of reporters like Roger Cohen, Carlotta Gall, Marlise Simons, and John F. Burns, who were prepared to toe the party line--and sometimes disseminated lies, but only lies that reinforced the party line and its biases.....
--------------------------------

Brock shows that it was a regular practice for the media to swallow and transmit without verification Bosnian Muslim official and even ham radio station claims of deaths in various battle zones. These were almost always inflated or entirely false, but the media took the bait, and while disappointed to find later that they had been gulled, neither issued corrections nor learned to be cautious.
-----------------------

Burns, who was well-known at the time to be an Izetbegovic favorite, had been given quick access to Herak, along with a Soros-funded movie-maker (whose presence at the interrogation was never acknowledged in the Burns report). Herak appeared very frightened, told his story to Burns “partly in the presence of prison officials,” and after one session asked Burns to get the prison authorities to promise not to beat him after his testimony! There was no corroborating evidence in corpses or eyewitnesses to his alleged crimes, and a fellow Bosnian Serb arrested with Herak had said right away that Herak was lying. Both Burns and the movie-maker suppressed the fact that Herak had accused UNPROFOR head, Canadian General Lewis MacKenzie, of having raped Bosnian women in a local bordello.

General MacKenzie had the audacity to say we had bombed the wrong side.

Brock has quite a few other illustrations of Burns’ violations of journalistic ethics. Burns pioneered in alleging 200,000 Muslim deaths in the warfare as early as July 1993, up from his estimate in April of 140,000; and, “venturing less and less outside Sarajevo, [Burns] consistently reported the government’s inflated casualty counts during the war.” On the MacNeil-Lehrer News Hour (Jan. 10, 1994) Burns upped the ante to 300,000 killed and 900,000 wounded. (For other Burns lies, misrepresentations and suppressions of evidence, pp. 77-80, 187.)

Brock’s analysis of the work of Roy Gutman is equally devastating. He shows compellingly that Gutman was not A Witness to Genocide (the title of Gutman 1993 book based on his dispatches from Bosnia), but rather an agent of propaganda provided, directly or indirectly, by parties with an axe to grind.
------------------------------------

Brock’s book has many other good things in it, like a discussion of the role of George Soros, public relations firms, Germany, the Vatican, and of course the Tribunal as an instrument of NATO. It is a very important work filling a needed gap in the critical literature on the Balkans wars and enlightening on the work of the mainstream media.

It is said the first casualty of war is the truth, nowhere would that be more evident than in Yugoslavia.

I actually laughed outloud.

We should call you giggles.

http://www.srebrenica-report.com/Srebrenica_Book.pdf


http://www.srebrenica-report.com/docs/UN-1993-1.pdf

Dig in.

Theres a great little book, Srebenica : A Record of a War Crime, it can be had at a reasonable price in paperback.

My computer doesn't read pdf.

Can you give the name of the author(s)?

Maybe you would like to give a juicy little tidbit of a quote?

 

[CSVol]

We should call you giggles.

You could be my partner Sh*ts. We could go on the road. I would play straight man and after every ridiculous rant I'd hit you in the face with a pie.

 

[milohimself]

Can you give the name of the author(s)?

Maybe you would like to give a juicy little tidbit of a quote?

ib4 the authors get cited as moslem/atheist/communist/socialist/lib/Hilary's cankles sympathizers.

 

[therealUT]

My computer doesn't read pdf.

Can you give the name of the author(s)?

Maybe you would like to give a juicy little tidbit of a quote?

Maybe you should download Adobe Acrobat Reader and, while you are at it, step out of the 12th Century.

 

[IPorange]

Foxit reader is a free download and also very good for pdf-viewing.

Sorry that legitimate sources don't come in blogspot form.

 

[emainvol]

When everyone is finished reading the Proyect gs cited, make sure to check out Proyect's blog entitled: The Unrepetant Marxist. Apparently leftists can only be viable sources when they agree with gs's skewed worldview.

 

[milohimself]

Marx also wanted to eliminate Islam.