Evaluating the Staff

[Liper]

When we all argue about CPF and the job he has done, there seems to be wide disagreement on 1) how well he has done and 2) what we should expect. I am referring to the semantics of the thing. As it relates to this year -- if it's an abberation or not -- I got to thinking about whether or not you can pick at a coach with his record.

FSU has been in a similiar type of slide since the 2000 NC Game. Here is their recent history, and then we can discuss the results of whether or not people should complain about FSU:

2001 8-4 #15
2002 9-5 #23
2003 10-3 #11 ACC Champs
2004 9-3 #15
2005 7-4 NR ACC Game

Here we have a formerly dominant program going through a lull (or is it?). They won a conference title as recently as 2 years ago, and are playing for one this year.

Many have been clamoring for some staff changes at FSU, deriding them for lack of offense over a period of years. Moreover, they were just destroyed by the in-state rival. They have not finished in the top 10 since their last NC appearance in 2000 and their NC Title in 1999.

Do you agree or disagree that staff changes should be made at FSU?

Is that acceptable for a program of their stature? What is?

 

[CSpindizzy]

Parallels....hmmm. When did Richt leave again? Parallels to Cutcliffe leaving and seeing the team slide. Watching their QB situation deteriorate year after year since. Seems a little to close to parallel....

 

[Liper]

Originally posted by CSpindizzy@Nov 30, 2005 1:02 PM
Parallels....hmmm. When did Richt leave again? Parallels to Cutcliffe leaving and seeing the team slide. Watching their QB situation deteriorate year after year since. Seems a little to close to parallel....

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Richt left after the 2000 season.

Even Terry Bowden has said that Jeff needs to be "re-assigned" within the staff and that he isn't getting it done as OC.

FSU fans and media have taken notice at FSU's problems and seem to strongly want change.

I just think it's funny that they WON the ACC 2 years ago and are playing for it RIGHT NOW -- and yet people seem to agree that they need changes. Interesting.

 

[CSpindizzy]

I think even going to the ACC title game has to be looked down upon for having a 7-4 record. How many conference champs or even contenders have 4 losses? Even three of their last games? They were blown out by UF. And look at the QB situation they've had for the past few years. There was even grumblings about Bowden's handling of QBs not long ago.

I'm not saying one way or another but I see the parallels between UT and FSU with the underlying issues they have regardless of title games. Some people are content with title games and rings. Some people want a tight ship with discipline and precision. Some people just want wins over the big boys. The point is that even among different teams the fan base is as broad as it is with politics or anything else. People have different expectations and goals. When a majority of those people aren't being satisfied they mob up and demand changes.

Personally I expect more than just title games. I have more pride than just those games. Miami, with all of their thugs and poor reputation, has taken it to the top before. I don't want to be like them. I want a team that the players keep their nose clean. I want focus, less penalties, etc. I go for the deeper matters rather than only an occasional ring.

 

[Liper]

Those are good points.

My intention was to get people to think about what we're looking for. Frankly, I think it is instructive for those who thought it wasn't a coaching problem (are there any left).

Before we had a losing season -- which is indefensible, even by the sheep -- the sheep said there weren't any problems and we're unreasonable because we just went the SECCG.

Well, FSU is playing for the title THIS YEAR and they are clamoring for changes with support from many in the media (which are some of the ones that said there weren't coaching problems).

Thus, if it's good enough for them it's good enough for me. At least FSU fans don't want to wait for them to lose 7 games before they make changes.

 

[CSpindizzy]

I agree with you completely. In my experience with the political world, I know there are so many tiers of support for a candidate or official. Some will support that person blindly even if that person lies, cheats, steals, and sleeps with their wife, daughter or barnyard animal. Then there are those who support but will hold that person accountable but still remain loyal. And then there are those who will jump ship or completely trash that person at the first sign of a letdown. of course you have many others tucked away in there.

With Bowden as well as Fulmer you have to start questioning their abilities as a leader and coach if they keep a system untouched that clearly has problems. I think in Fulmer's case the calls for his head would have been isolated to a token few had he made changes a few years back or even last year. But when needed changes are left undone to the point the team sinks into a losing season and a morale abyss, THAT is when people will rightfully question what's going on with the head coach. Being head coach has duties of recognizing internal issues and quickly addressing them before they get out of control. It also involves recognizing that solving critical problems supercedes friendships on the staff. if friendship interferes with righting a ship, then you get more questions.

Fulmer clearly has dropped the ball. But no matter what any of us think about him, he is here for another year at least. He has made some changes that were needed and should be beneficial for the team. All of us, no matter where we are on the spectrum can only hope for the best and support those players who run out on that field and represent orange and white game after game. I think criticism of Fulmer at this point, which is anyone's right, is pointless. I also think that criticism of fans from ANY standpoint is equally pointless. Bashing people for an opinion that one disagrees with, which is anyone's right again, does little to help ANY situation. But people will do what they feel and there's nothing to stop the kool aid drinkers on any side.

 

[jakez4ut]

Originally posted by Liper@Nov 30, 2005 2:10 PM
Richt left after the 2000 season.

Even Terry Bowden has said that Jeff needs to be "re-assigned" within the staff and that he isn't getting it done as OC.

FSU fans and media have taken notice at FSU's problems and seem to strongly want change.

I just think it's funny that they WON the ACC 2 years ago and are playing for it RIGHT NOW -- and yet people seem to agree that they need changes.  Interesting.

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heh, heh, heh....nicely done Liper.


YOu are absolutey correct...in fact i posted on here not too long ago....."how much do you think Bowden misses Mark Richt right now?"

fans are fickle no matter where you are....we all want it all and we all want it now! we played for it twice in the last 5 years....just as FSU....both lost cooridnators, both have had qb issues, both have had great recruiting classes the past 3-4 years....

yet both fan bases are questioning everything....don't get me wrong....we needed change, and this year is evidence....makes you wonder though will Bobby Bowden let that program have a losing reocrd or go 6-5 before he makes drastic changes????

 

[Lexvol]

One thing to keep in mind is that this Fla State team is one of the youngest in the country, and judging by the victory against the Canes, at least show signs of respectability.

If you talk to a UT or Fla State fan that knows what the heck they are talking about they will take this comparison even further. Each will say they had two overrated QBs (Casey Clausen and Chris Rix) that ran their perspective program's offense into the ground. As a result, both teams still struggle offensively at that position.

 

[jakez4ut]

Originally posted by Lexvol@Nov 30, 2005 3:05 PM
One thing to keep in mind is that this Fla State team is one of the youngest in the country, and judging by the victory against the Canes, at least show signs of respectability.

If you talk to a UT or Fla State fan that knows what the heck they are talking about they will take this comparison even further.  Each will say they had two overrated QBs (Casey Clausen and Chris Rix) that ran their perspective program's offense into the ground.  As a result, both teams still struggle offensively at that position.

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I wouldn't put Casey in Chris Rix's category at all though...And if your looking for signs of respectabity, we beat LSU early this season...i think the comparisons are worthy...

the point is college football is cyclical....OK, Neb, FSU, Miami, Bama, ND, PSU all have had down cycles, and so have we, it's just been 20 years since our last one....and now we're in one....

 

[Liper]

Casey had one heckuva 2001. Statistically, it's probably the 3rd or 4th best season in UT history.

 

[jakez4ut]

Originally posted by Liper@Nov 30, 2005 4:27 PM
Casey had one heckuva 2001.  Statistically, it's probably the 3rd or 4th best season in UT history.

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yeah, it's a shame, i know there a lot of folks out there that liked Casey, and i was one of them, though i admit, it was hard watching him at times, but he gets too much criticism...

what he lacked in personality, he made up for in toughness and making plays...two games i'll never forget, and people sometimes talk about them as why he was bad, but the ARK o/t game and Bama o/t game....yeah, he wasn't perfect..but mercy me, when it counted, the guy just made plays....tough as nails.

 

[Liper]

Originally posted by jakez4ut@Nov 30, 2005 3:32 PM
yeah, it's a shame, i know there a lot of folks out there that liked Casey, and i was one of them, though i admit, it was hard watching him at times, but he gets too much criticism...

what he lacked in personality, he made up for in toughness and making plays...two games i'll never forget, and people sometimes talk about them as why he was bad, but the ARK o/t game and Bama o/t game....yeah, he wasn't perfect..but mercy me, when it counted, the guy just made plays....tough as nails.

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He plenty of those types of games. How about @ FLA in 2001? That's still one of the biggest wins of the CPF era -- and against a great FLA team.

For the life of me I cannot understand why people don't like him. My hunch is that we stunk on offense around him for 2 years and they blame CC. It wasn't his fault.

Plus, with all of the moaning about "playing with heart"...heck, he was as tough as any guy we've had. He passes the mustard big time on every measure with me:

Smart player
Productive
Gamer
Tough

 

[volmanjr]

Casey Clausen was no better the day he left UT than the day he got here IMO. I guess I'm a part of the herd , I think Phil deserves a chance to fix things and I think he is making the kinds of changes that need to be made. The thing that perplexes me is how much better we were last yr than expected and how worse we were this yr than expected with the same staff.

 

[jakez4ut]

Originally posted by volmanjr@Nov 30, 2005 5:04 PM
Casey Clausen was no better the day he left UT than the day he got here IMO. I guess I'm a part of the herd , I think Phil deserves a chance to fix things and I think he is making the kinds of changes that need to be made. The thing that perplexes me is how much better we were last yr than expected and how worse we were this yr than expected with the same staff.

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your right about Casey, but that doesn't detract from the kind of competitor he was...he did more with less than just about anybody i can think of....

and as for last year vs. this year...well that's the whole thing isn't it? why else would we be all in a fuss if it weren't for last year's finish...

 

[WA_Vol]

Originally posted by Liper@Nov 30, 2005 2:10 PM
Richt left after the 2000 season.

Even Terry Bowden has said that Jeff needs to be "re-assigned" within the staff and that he isn't getting it done as OC.

FSU fans and media have taken notice at FSU's problems and seem to strongly want change.

I just think it's funny that they WON the ACC 2 years ago and are playing for it RIGHT NOW -- and yet people seem to agree that they need changes.  Interesting.

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I felt most of FSU's problems started after Richt left. Very good QB coaches are hard to replace. Their QB play hasnt been the same. Richt immediately stepped in and did a great job with David Greene at Ga.

I think Bowden has not retired because he wants to be the winningest college football coach ever and he is waiting on JoePa to retire. I think thats the only reason both of those guys are still coaching. Its hard to coach in your late 60's, it takes a lot of energy.

 

[Liper]

Originally posted by volmanjr@Nov 30, 2005 4:04 PM
Casey Clausen was no better the day he left UT than the day he got here IMO. I guess I'm a part of the herd , I think Phil deserves a chance to fix things and I think he is making the kinds of changes that need to be made. The thing that perplexes me is how much better we were last yr than expected and how worse we were this yr than expected with the same staff.

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That doesn't explain why you or someone else would not LIKE him though. We've had MUCH worse Qbs than he that didn't draw the ire of fans.

I agree: I think CPF is doing the right things. He's just doing them AMAZINGLY late.

The reason we are worse with the same staff is for a couple of reasons:

1. We weren't very good last year, but the breaks and special teams were better.

2. We didn't make the game changing mistakes with the same regularity. When we did, we got SLAUGHTERED (see Auburn 1).

3. We almost lost to BAMA, FLA, USC, MISS. By the skin of our teeth we won or came back and won those games. That's 4 losses with either turnovers or bad special teams.

4. Our offense sucked eggs last year until the Kentucky's of the world came on the schedule. It's revisionist history for anyone to talk about why our offense isn't "good like last year."

Does anyone remember the agony that was 2002?

What do you think about FSU, by the way?

 

[Liper]

Originally posted by oklavol@Nov 30, 2005 4:15 PM
I felt most of FSU's problems started after Richt left.  Very good QB coaches are hard to replace.  Their QB play hasnt been the same.  Richt immediately stepped in and did a great job with David Greene at Ga.

I think Bowden has not retired because he wants to be the winningest college football coach ever and he is waiting on JoePa to retire.  I think thats the only reason both of those guys are still coaching.  Its hard to coach in your late 60's, it takes a lot of energy.

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If Bowden wanted to sound like CPF, he could say, "What are you crazy? We're in the ACCCG and won the durn thing in 2003. We've built up a lot of equity around here." I'd tell him he needs some new coaches and that they are underachieving.

 

[Lexvol]

Originally posted by Liper@Nov 30, 2005 3:39 PM
He plenty of those types of games.  How about @ FLA in 2001?  That's still one of the biggest wins of the CPF era -- and against a great FLA team.

For the life of me I cannot understand why people don't like him.  My hunch is that we stunk on offense around him for 2 years and they blame CC.  It wasn't his fault.

Plus, with all of the moaning about "playing with heart"...heck, he was as tough as any guy we've had.  He passes the mustard big time on every measure with me:

Smart player
Productive
Gamer
Tough

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I will give you productive and tough, but his decision making cost the Vols. Casey was the king of going down field on 3 and 3. I think Casey was more limited than you are willing to admit, and he thought he was much better than he actually was. His gamer side was as much a negative as a positive.

He also had what I consider an average arm. My beef with Casey was between his ears. Single handedly lost Fla game in the rain in 2002 (think I got the year right, but you remember the game), and also lost the GA game in 2003 when he fumbled at the goal line.

 

[CSpindizzy]

Originally posted by oklavol@Nov 30, 2005 4:15 PM
I think Bowden has not retired because he wants to be the winningest college football coach ever and he is waiting on JoePa to retire.  I think thats the only reason both of those guys are still coaching.  Its hard to coach in your late 60's, it takes a lot of energy.

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They'll both be out there on life support systems trying to coach. Bobby might have to send one of the kids up there to sabotage JoePa's. We could see both at 90 trying to hold on long enough to beat the other out.

 

[jakez4ut]

Originally posted by Lexvol@Nov 30, 2005 5:32 PM
I will give you productive and tough, but his decision making cost the Vols.  Casey was the king of going down field on 3 and 3.  I think Casey was more limited than you are willing to admit, and he thought he was much better than he actually was.  His gamer side was as much a negative as a positive. 

He also had what I consider an average arm.  My beef with Casey was between his ears. Single handedly lost Fla game in the rain in 2002 (think I got the year right, but you remember the game), and also lost the GA game in 2003 when he fumbled at the goal line.

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i didn't mean to turn this in to a CC thread, but since it's done, well, for those two games, i'll just concede...though the UGA game, while it did suck, i seem to remember that an entire second half of football had to be played, and NO ONE did anything to win that....and the UF game...well, he wasn't the only one on the feild that day....

he also made many, many plays to win games for us...and he was limited...he didn't have near the talent around him at skill positions thru out his career at UT that other qb's have had the luxury of...

 

[Lexvol]

That one piece of game management at the goal line took the air out of the team and the stadium. As I recall, he was supposed to ground the ball and stop the clock. So it is a perfect example of how his gamesmanship cost UT a chance to win.

I think he fumbled 4 times in the Fla game as well. Even if the offensive decline was not all CC's fault, he has to bear a large part of the responsibility.

Again, my real beef with CC was that he didn't seem to understand his limitations. As a competitor, that can offer several advantages, but it can also be an obstacle.

I think UT wasted four years on a average QB. You can't blame that all on CC. If Cut were here it would have never happened. That I will concede.

 

[jakez4ut]

Originally posted by Lexvol@Nov 30, 2005 5:57 PM
Again, my real beef with CC was that he didn't seem to understand his limitations.  As a competitor, that can offer several advantages, but it can also be an obstacle.

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Now that i will agree with whole heartidly. That's where that cool California cockiness in his personality got him in to trouble sometimes...

 

[Lexvol]

One more point an I will shut up. I think that this season may be an indicator of what was happening back then as well. CC and every QB that has played for Sanders has been burdened with the leadership of the details. If Fulmer and Sanders weren't paying attention to the little things, perhaps they were requiring the 20 year old players to do that ala Peyton Manning. That would be too much pressure for anyone, much less CC.

 

[jakez4ut]

Originally posted by Lexvol@Nov 30, 2005 6:08 PM
One more point an I will shut up.  I think that this season may be an indicator of what was happening back then as well.  CC and every QB that has played for Sanders has been burdened with the leadership of the details.  If Fulmer and Sanders weren't paying attention to the little things, perhaps they were requiring the 20 year old players to do that ala Peyton Manning.  That would be too much pressure for anyone, much less CC.

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I will agree with that as well...though i look at this season as more of a culmination of issues we all knew were there 3-4 years ago...but those issues were deemed small and fixable with a little tweaking, so long as we won 8 or 9 games a year...then you could say "we're only a few plays away from 10-2" or whatever....this year, there's nothing to hide behind....it had to be addressed. and it is now.

 

[Liper]

Originally posted by jakez4ut@Nov 30, 2005 5:20 PM
I will agree with that as well...though i look at this season as more of a culmination of issues we all knew were there 3-4 years ago...but those issues were deemed small and fixable with a little tweaking, so long as we won 8 or 9 games a year...then you could say "we're only a few plays away from 10-2" or whatever....this year, there's nothing to hide behind....it had to be addressed.  and it is now.

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Yup yup. 5-6 means you can't hide. But why hide? Delusion...loyalty...pride...ego...