Federal Indictment of Donald Trump

[hUTch2002]

This is starting to have the feel that, except for perhaps the district court judge, both the special master and even maybe the panel who got the case at the 11th circuit appreciate on the front end that this is another round of largely delay tactics, typical of Trump in litigation for decades, and they aren't going to let it sit while Trump waits for a GOP-led set of Congressional committees to try to gum it up before a conclusion is reached.

You mean the same special master you all have been whining about ad nauseam? It seems some people actually can look at something objectively, you just aren’t one of them.

 

[hUTch2002]

I would assume that’s correct.

So, if classification doesn’t limit the access of the sitting president, what purpose does a clandestine declassification serve?

I would assume that the entire purpose of the procedures is to give notice to people who aren’t the president about what they can and can’t have access to.

So I think that raises two disputes.

First, there would be a factual dispute (jury question) about whether he actually declassified anything or whether he made that up after the fact. In that dispute, it would also be significant that he didn’t raise declassification in his correspondence with national archives when they advised him they were forwarding everything to other agencies to review whether it was a breach of national security. Seems like that would have been an opportune time to raise that issue, if it were true. “I declassified it” only came up after the theory was floated by, as far as I know, the infowars contributor lawyers. Makes it seem like an excuse.

Second, there seems to be a legal question of whether a secret declassification has any legal effect.

In this situation RT, would the burden be on the DOJ to prove he didn’t declassify the documents or on Trump to prove he did since he asserted that defense?

Edit: I’m assuming the ultimate burden of proof would still reside with the DOJ. With this being a potential criminal case I’m guessing Trump is setting up to use this potential declassification as reasonable doubt. If all this is correct then he doesn’t have to prove he actually declassified the documents, he just has to plant reasonable doubt and there’s no criminal case. I don’t know if that’s what this is about or not but it seems plausible if everything I’ve stated is accurate. I don’t know why it wouldn’t be but you’d know better than I would.

 

[volgr]

I would assume that’s correct.

So, if classification doesn’t limit the access of the sitting president, what purpose does a clandestine declassification serve?

I would assume that the entire purpose of the procedures is to give notice to people who aren’t the president about what they can and can’t have access to.

So I think that raises two disputes.

First, there would be a factual dispute (jury question) about whether he actually declassified anything or whether he made that up after the fact. In that dispute, it would also be significant that he didn’t raise declassification in his correspondence with national archives when they advised him they were forwarding everything to other agencies to review whether it was a breach of national security. Seems like that would have been an opportune time to raise that issue, if it were true. “I declassified it” only came up after the theory was floated by, as far as I know, the infowars contributor lawyers. Makes it seem like an excuse.

Second, there seems to be a legal question of whether a secret declassification has any legal effect.

On your first "factual dispute", when then President Trump took the files, it would then be assumed they were declassified. There is no dispute. One could argue if that is responsible conduct for a President but that is for the people to decide when they vote for him or Congress to decide if they choose to impeach him.

On the other hand, one has to also ask about how responsible it is for the DoJ to be used in this manner to go after a former President for what looks to be at this time, legal conduct.

 

[RockyTop85]

On your first "factual dispute", when then President Trump took the files, it would then be assumed they were declassified. There is no dispute. One could argue if that is responsible conduct for a President but that is for the people to decide when they vote for him or Congress to decide if they choose to impeach him.

On the other hand, one has to also ask about how responsible it is for the DoJ to be used in this manner to go after a former President for what looks to be at this time, legal conduct.

No, it would not be assumed. Yes, there is a dispute. Look at the 11th circuit. Look at the Special Master. They’re both assuming the exact opposite. This fantasy is over. It’s time to come back to reality, cosmonaut.

 

[RockyTop85]

In this situation RT, would the burden be on the DOJ to prove he didn’t declassify the documents or on Trump to prove he did since he asserted that defense?

Edit: I’m assuming the ultimate burden of proof would still reside with the DOJ. With this being a potential criminal case I’m guessing Trump is setting up to use this potential declassification as reasonable doubt. If all this is correct then he doesn’t have to prove he actually declassified the documents, he just has to plant reasonable doubt and there’s no criminal case. I don’t know if that’s what this is about or not but it seems plausible if everything I’ve stated is accurate. I don’t know why it wouldn’t be but you’d know better than I would.

In the special master proceeding it’s apparently on Trump. I say “apparently” because it’s not really clear wtf that proceeding was, but the special master said it was up to Trump since he’s being treated as the plaintiff.
In a criminal trial, it’s on DOJ to prove the elements* and it would be up to Trump to prove an affirmative defense. That kind of burden shifting is really only significant when it comes time to how it is reviewed on appeal.
Both sides are going to fire all their cannons on that issue and it is hard to overturn a jury’s findings. So it’s kind of like the jury deciding which one they believe more.

Pre-criminal trial, especially after the Hannity interview, I think this whole infowars magical declassification theory will get litigated. If that’s part of their defense, and Trump seems to have locked them in to it, I think there’s probably going to be some attempt to have courts say “that’s not a real thing.”

*- not all of the crimes listed in the warrant had “classified documents” as an element.

 

[UT_VOLS13]

EXCLUSIVE: Trump second term would bring back 'best-ever' relationship with Hungary, foreign minister says

 

[volgr]

No, it would not be assumed. Yes, there is a dispute. Look at the 11th circuit. Look at the Special Master. They’re both assuming the exact opposite. This fantasy is over. It’s time to come back to reality, cosmonaut.

You have already lost this debate. Either the elected President is the head of the Executive branch or unelected bureaucrats (who ironically answer to the President) are. In your hatred of Trump, you have inverted the power dynamic and diminished the Office of the President. SCOTUS will most likely agree with my assessment, not yours.

 

[RockyTop85]

You have already lost this debate. Either the elected President is the head of the Executive branch or unelected bureaucrats (who ironically answer to the President) are. In your hatred of Trump, you have inverted the power dynamic and diminished the Office of the President. SCOTUS will most likely agree with my assessment, not yours.

I lost by having the 11th Circuit agree with me?

You’re gonna need an extra roll of tin foil.

 

[volgr]

I lost by having the 11th Circuit agree with me?

You’re gonna need an extra roll of tin foil.

Yes, because a Court has never made an incorrect or biased ruling. I see you don't argue the merits. Either the elected President is head of the executive or unelected bureaucrats who answer to the President are. Which is it? The President is the ultimate arbiter of classification. Period. End of story. It may be deemed careless or irresponsible by some but there are remedies for that (elections and impeachment).

If a Presidential were held today, Trump would easily defeat Biden. This after the public being saturated with this story. There is nothing to prosecute here. We look like the banana Republic we are evidently becoming.

 

[RockyTop85]

Yes, because a Court has never made an incorrect or biased ruling. I see you don't argue the merits. Either the elected President is head of the executive or unelected bureaucrats who answer to the President are. Which is it? The President is the ultimate arbiter of classification. Period. End of story. It may be deemed careless or irresponsible by some but there are remedies for that (elections and impeachment).

If a Presidential were held today, Trump would easily defeat Biden. This after the public being saturated with this story. There is nothing to prosecute here. We look like the banana Republic we are evidently becoming.

I argued the merits with your for three damn days, starting with post 5,584 in this very thread, you dishonest ****.

It’s a novel legal argument. The merits will be determined by the courts. So far, four judges have said you’re wrong and 1 has said she’ll look into it later. You’re off your meds if you think that’s a posture from which to declare victory.

 

[volgr]

I argued the merits with your for three damn days, starting with post 5,584 in this very thread, you dishonest ****.

It’s a novel legal argument. The merits will be determined by the courts. So far, four judges have said you’re wrong and 1 has said she’ll look into it later. You’re off your meds if you think that’s a posture from which to declare victory.

It's a novel legal argument that the elected President is the head of the Executive?

 

[NCFisher]

In the special master proceeding it’s apparently on Trump. I say “apparently” because it’s not really clear wtf that proceeding was, but the special master said it was up to Trump since he’s being treated as the plaintiff.
In a criminal trial, it’s on DOJ to prove the elements* and it would be up to Trump to prove an affirmative defense. That kind of burden shifting is really only significant when it comes time to how it is reviewed on appeal.
Both sides are going to fire all their cannons on that issue and it is hard to overturn a jury’s findings. So it’s kind of like the jury deciding which one they believe more.

Pre-criminal trial, especially after the Hannity interview, I think this whole infowars magical declassification theory will get litigated. If that’s part of their defense, and Trump seems to have locked them in to it, I think there’s probably going to be some attempt to have courts say “that’s not a real thing.”

*- not all of the crimes listed in the warrant had “classified documents” as an element.

In the 'Property to be seized' warrant declaration you reference, of the four items just two refer to "documents with classification markings", a third refers to information re: the retrieval, storage, transmission of defense info or classified material, and the fourth a general claim to all documents created during his term.

Classification authority has been interesting discussion, but DOJ isn't claiming any of the materials marked classified are actually classified. It doesn't appear classification status is basis for the raid, but rather to establish obstruction via Trump lawyer Christian Bobb's certification regarding the documents turned over in June. IMO, DOJ may have wanted to avoid the declassification authority argument.

 

[RockyTop85]

In the 'Property to be seized' warrant declaration you reference, of the four items just two refer to "documents with classification markings", a third refers to information re: the retrieval, storage, transmission of defense info or classified material, and the fourth a general claim to all documents created during his term.

Classification authority has been interesting discussion, but DOJ isn't claiming any of the materials marked classified are actually classified. It doesn't appear classification status is basis for the raid, but rather to establish obstruction via Trump lawyer Christian Bobb's certification regarding the documents turned over in June. IMO, DOJ may have wanted to avoid the declassification authority argument.

I don’t know where you’re getting the underlined or if I’m misunderstanding. I haven’t read the DOJ filings, but the special master’s orders and statements from the bench as well as the 11th Cir. decision say the opposite.

The special master said DOJ had shown evidence sufficient to conclude that the documents were classified and Trump had to show otherwise or else he would conclude that they were classified. That’s moot now because CA11 did the same analysis and concluded that it was an abuse of discretion to even appoint a special master to review the classified documents, because they were classified.

 

[RockyTop85]

It's a novel legal argument that the elected President is the head of the Executive?

when then President Trump took the files, it would then be assumed they were declassified.

novel legal argument.

 

[volgr]

novel legal argument.

That isn't novel. It is in agreement with the first statement you quoted. Either the President is the head of the Executive and sets classification status, or he isn't. This isn't hard to understand, this is just you disingenuously trying to muddy the legal waters.

 

[lawgator1]

You mean the same special master you all have been whining about ad nauseam? It seems some people actually can look at something objectively, you just aren’t one of them.

The special master himself is not delaying it.


Trump asking for a special master and getting the postponement of DOJ review of the documents is a delay tactic. And not working. Even the Trump appointed judges at the 11th saw that for what it is and nixed it immediately.

 

[lawgator1]

That isn't novel. It is in agreement with the first statement you quoted. Either the President is the head of the Executive and sets classification status, or he isn't. This isn't hard to understand, this is just you disingenuously trying to muddy the legal waters.

That's true and he can declassify things simply by thinking it.

 

[RockyTop85]

That isn't novel. It is in agreement with the first statement you quoted. Either the President is the head of the Executive and sets classification status, or he isn't. This isn't hard to understand, this is just you disingenuously trying to muddy the legal waters.

If it’s not novel, then why didn’t the 11th Cir. cite to the case that says “we assume documents are declassified when the president takes them to his private residence?”

 

[volgr]

That's true and he can declassify things simply by thinking it.

He can, but it is irresponsible. Again, this is an argument for his fitness for office that needs to be made to voters, not a legal matter. Your going to diminish the Constitutional role of the President in your quest to destroy Trump, or maybe that is the goal to diminish the Executive so we are ruled by unelected bureaucrats.

 

[Sudden Impact]

In the 'Property to be seized' warrant declaration you reference, of the four items just two refer to "documents with classification markings", a third refers to information re: the retrieval, storage, transmission of defense info or classified material, and the fourth a general claim to all documents created during his term.

Classification authority has been interesting discussion, but DOJ isn't claiming any of the materials marked classified are actually classified. It doesn't appear classification status is basis for the raid, but rather to establish obstruction via Trump lawyer Christian Bobb's certification regarding the documents turned over in June. IMO, DOJ may have wanted to avoid the declassification authority argument.

Simple answer. The President has the Authority to declassify, to declassify the President WILL follow the prescribe procedures in accordance with Regulatory Guidance to declassify. Trump and staff failed to follow the procedures to do so. I hate that some do not get that this is the way that it is outlined. In simple terms, he failed to submit the paperwork and make it a matter of record regarding the Classified Documents found at MAR.

Ownership is the next issue. Even if he had properly done it the declassify documents remain with the government.

I really can't see what the problems with seeing that it is really this simple.

 

[NCFisher]

I don’t know where you’re getting the underlined or if I’m misunderstanding. I haven’t read the DOJ filings, but the special master’s orders and statements from the bench as well as the 11th Cir. decision say the opposite.

The special master said DOJ had shown evidence sufficient to conclude that the documents were classified and Trump had to show otherwise or else he would conclude that they were classified. That’s moot now because CA11 did the same analysis and concluded that it was an abuse of discretion to even appoint a special master to review the classified documents.

I read lawyer Bobb's certification letter from the document transfer in June and the DOJ's August warrant. I didn't find the May/June subpoena, but saw Solomon had reported the language in the subpoena and the raid warrant were identical. If they are, doesn't that make a charge of obstruction the primary offense? It could explain why DOJ didn't follow up on Trump's invitation to come back if they needed anything else, or subpoena again, if they had a lead that marked documents were still on premise after certifying they weren't.

I don't view the special master is the final say on whether the documents were classified. If you were prosecution, would you rather litigate classification authority, possibly on appeal up to SCOTUS, along with obstruction (and enforcing the PRA) in this scenario? My understanding the PRA has no criminal penalty. A charge of obstruction seems to have real legs without muddying it with classification powers - and thus the classification status of the files - and potentially jeopardizing an obstruction case.

?

 

[hUTch2002]

In the special master proceeding it’s apparently on Trump. I say “apparently” because it’s not really clear wtf that proceeding was, but the special master said it was up to Trump since he’s being treated as the plaintiff.
In a criminal trial, it’s on DOJ to prove the elements* and it would be up to Trump to prove an affirmative defense. That kind of burden shifting is really only significant when it comes time to how it is reviewed on appeal.
Both sides are going to fire all their cannons on that issue and it is hard to overturn a jury’s findings. So it’s kind of like the jury deciding which one they believe more.

Pre-criminal trial, especially after the Hannity interview, I think this whole infowars magical declassification theory will get litigated. If that’s part of their defense, and Trump seems to have locked them in to it, I think there’s probably going to be some attempt to have courts say “that’s not a real thing.”

*- not all of the crimes listed in the warrant had “classified documents” as an element.

Thanks RT.

 

[hUTch2002]

The special master himself is not delaying it.


Trump asking for a special master and getting the postponement of DOJ review of the documents is a delay tactic. And not working. Even the Trump appointed judges at the 11th saw that for what it is and nixed it immediately.

You missed the point. The point is you all whined about this Trump appointed special master as if they wouldn’t be impartial and it seems like they are doing their job without regard to political ties, as they should.

 

[lawgator1]

You missed the point. The point is you all whined about this Trump appointed special master as if they wouldn’t be impartial and it seems like they are doing their job without regard to political ties, as they should.

I did not.

 

[hUTch2002]

That's a sound point of contention; did Trump make such a statement with any staff present? Kash Patel states he was present when the president made a declassification declaration, but uncertain if that refers to Jan 19-20, 2021. I dislike the 'standing order' claim by Trump even if true, and don't argue it isn't a ruse but that we don't know. No one does NOT prefer the executive orderly execute his classification authority, I just don't see a procedural-slob exclusion.

Here's another - can a president by treating materials as unclassified, thus render them unclassified? If no, where is that constitutional limitation? Don't recall the origin. I think Trump has claimed he had a standing order of declassification for docs he'd take home/MAL during his presidency, but I can't reliably follow his stream of consciousness proclamations.

The classification system is established by executive orders of successive presidents (from FDR on) to dictate how everyone else handles material. Congress has three primary laws applying penalty to the system.

If the docs pertained to DOJ/FBI malfeasance re: Russia investigations, I'd rather those were public and him in jail, rather than being reacquired by DOJ.