FYI-Restaurant carry passed

#51
#51
lawgator1 said:
In fact, I'd wager that at this instant the great majority of people in this country who have a concealed weapons permit have at least one firearm, unattended, in a car or a home and relatively unsecured, at that.
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So? If you don't have kids, you should be able to leave your gun wherever you want.
 
#52
#52
lawgator1 said:
In fact, I'd wager that at this instant the great majority of people in this country who have a concealed weapons permit have at least one firearm, unattended, in a car or a home and relatively unsecured, at that.
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the great majority? anything to back that up?

also, what is the incidence rate for break-ins to cars/homes of permit holders?

seems a bit of a red herring to claim significant risk from permit holders having their guns misappropriated.
 
#53
#53
lawgator1 said:
Your point ignores the obvious reality that people with concealed weapons permits do not always have the gun with them. They leave them in closests and in cars all the time.

In fact, I'd wager that at this instant the great majority of people in this country who have a concealed weapons permit have at least one firearm, unattended, in a car or a home and relatively unsecured, at that.
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You so worried about prescription drugs too?
 
#54
#54
volinbham said:
the great majority? anything to back that up?

also, what is the incidence rate for break-ins to cars/homes of permit holders?

seems a bit of a red herring to claim significant risk from permit holders having their guns misappropriated.
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Personally, I keep all my kitchen knives in a secure safe in my basement, in case a murderer tries to steal them.
 
#55
#55
lawgator1 said:
Your point ignores the obvious reality that people with concealed weapons permits do not always have the gun with them. They leave them in closests and in cars all the time.

In fact, I'd wager that at this instant the great majority of people in this country who have a concealed weapons permit have at least one firearm, unattended, in a car or a home and relatively unsecured, at that.
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If a CC permit holder is allowed to carry in more public places would this not mean that he would be less likely to leave his gun at home or in a car, thus making the chances of it being stolen and in the hands of a criminal less likely?
 
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#56
#56
lawgator1 said:
Your point ignores the obvious reality that people with concealed weapons permits do not always have the gun with them. They leave them in closests and in cars all the time.

In fact, I'd wager that at this instant the great majority of people in this country who have a concealed weapons permit have at least one firearm, unattended, in a car or a home and relatively unsecured, at that.
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You lost me LG. I haven't ignored anything or for that matter even disagree with anything you say in this particular post. What I do say is that the point you make, accurate as it may be, is not the least bit germane to the issue of the OP or even related issues about the pros/cons of concealed carry.

The majority of firearms owned in this country are NOT owned by people with carry permits in the first place. Even if we ARE concerning ourselves only with those that do have such permits I'm rather at a loss as to the relevance of what their weapons are doing when not being carried. What is the practical distinction between a weapon left at home by someone with a carry permit vs and one left at home by someone without?
 
#57
#57
kptvol said:
Personally, I keep all my kitchen knives in a secure safe in my basement, in case a murderer tries to steal them.
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Hardly the same thing and you know it. Countless legal guns are stolen every day during car burglaries.

At any rate, the FBI stats show:


How many guns are stolen?

The Victim Survey (NCVS) estimates that there were
341,000 incidents of firearm theft from private
citizens annually from 1987-92. Since the survey
does not ask how many guns were stolen, the number
of guns stolen probably exceeds the number of
incidents of gun theft.

The FBI's National Crime Information Center (NCIC)
stolen gun file contained over 2 million reports
as of March 1995. In 1994, over 306,000 entries
were added to this file including a variety of
guns, ammunition, cannons and grenades. Reports
of stolen guns are included in the NCIC files when
citizens report the theft to law enforcement
agencies which submit a report to the FBI. All
entries must include make, caliber, and serial
number. Initiated in 1967, the NCIC stolen gun
file retains all entries indefinitely unless a
recovery is reported.

Most stolen guns are handguns

Victims report to the Victim Survey that in 53% of
the thefts of guns, handguns were stolen. The
FBI's stolen gun file's 2 million reports include
information on--
1.26 million handguns (almost 60%)
470,000 rifles (22%)
356,000 shotguns (17%).

From 1985 to 1994, the FBI received an annual
average of over 274,000 reports of stolen guns

(graphic: Number of stolen gun entries into NCIC)

Source: FBI, National Crime Information Center,
1995.
 
#58
#58
KB5252 said:
If a CC permit holder is allowed to carry in more public places would this not mean that he would be less likely to leave his gun at home or in a car, thus making the chances of it being stolen and in the hands of a criminal?
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And then there's this. Good point.
 
#59
#59
hndog609 said:
The majority of firearms owned in this country are NOT owned by people with carry permits in the first place. Even if we ARE concerning ourselves only with those that do have such permits I'm rather at a loss as to the relevance of what their weapons are doing when not being carried. What is the practical distinction between a weapon left at home by someone with a carry permit vs and one left at home by someone without?
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Apparently leaving a firearm unattended in a car is about the most dangerous thing since the Taliban. And yet, LG is arguing that a law that would prevent such a danger is a bad thing.
 
#61
#61
kptvol said:
Apparently leaving a firearm unattended in a car is about the most dangerous thing since the Taliban. And yet, LG is arguing that a law that would prevent such a danger is a bad thing.
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Or, you could require that people that own guns keep them much more secure than a glove compartment or a console. That might help, too.


kptvol said:
Who cares? Guns are worth a lot of money. If I were breaking into someone's house that's something I'd grab.
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For petty criminals, a gun they can steal and then sell (or use themselves) is as valuable as cash or jewelry.


I defended a case a few years back. A 16 year old kid and his buddies like to break into cars and steal CDs and what not. They do this recreationally, just kids getting into mischief. They aren't career criminals. They are in high school together.

One weekend they go on one of their little sprees and this time they find a handgun.

The next Monday, the kid brings it to school to show off. Long story short he is driving away from the school and his friend is in the back seat looking at it, it goes off, bullet goes through the front seat and into the driver, killing him.

Gun was legal on Saturday. On Monday it killed someone.
 
#62
#62
All we need to do is make guns "illegal". That way nobody would have them. Kind of like the way we have been able to keep drugs out of the country by making them illegal.

The fact is; we are never going to be able to keep guns out of the hands of the bad guys. With that said, suppose you are a bad guy. There are 2 neighborhoods. Every house in one neighborhood has a gun while every house in the other does not. Which neighborhood do you choose to rob?
 
#63
#63
lawgator1 said:
Or, you could require that people that own guns keep them much more secure than a glove compartment or a console. That might help, too.

If someone steals a car, they're getting the damn gun that's in it, no matter where you put it.

For petty criminals, a gun they can steal and then sell (or use themselves) is as valuable as cash or jewelry.


I defended a case a few years back. A 16 year old kid and his buddies like to break into cars and steal CDs and what not. They do this recreationally, just kids getting into mischief. They aren't career criminals. They are in high school together.

One weekend they go on one of their little sprees and this time they find a handgun.

The next Monday, the kid brings it to school to show off. Long story short he is driving away from the school and his friend is in the back seat looking at it, it goes off, bullet goes through the front seat and into the driver, killing him.

Gun was legal on Saturday. On Monday it killed someone.
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Alright. So like I said, a gun gets stolen because it's worth something, not because someone is searching through someone's house looking for a murder weapon. Your story about criminals being killed because of their own poor choices and stupidity is not relevant. Had the kid stolen the gun and then intentionally opened fire on a crowd of his classmates, I might see some relevance.
 
#64
#64
lawgator1 said:
Or, you could require that people that own guns keep them much more secure than a glove compartment or a console. That might help, too.
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Why do that? Going to also enact overprotective legislation concerning swimming pools? Storage of prescription drugs at home? A complete nannie state filled with people that are too stupid to get by without the help of people like you watching out for them.
 
#65
#65
celebrate_diversity_guns1.gif
 
#66
#66
lawgator1 said:
Or, you could require that people that own guns keep them much more secure than a glove compartment or a console. That might help, too.




For petty criminals, a gun they can steal and then sell (or use themselves) is as valuable as cash or jewelry.


I defended a case a few years back. A 16 year old kid and his buddies like to break into cars and steal CDs and what not. They do this recreationally, just kids getting into mischief. They aren't career criminals. They are in high school together.

One weekend they go on one of their little sprees and this time they find a handgun.

The next Monday, the kid brings it to school to show off. Long story short he is driving away from the school and his friend is in the back seat looking at it, it goes off, bullet goes through the front seat and into the driver, killing him.

Gun was legal on Saturday. On Monday it killed someone.
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In a fit of admitted cynicism I'd call that darwinism. Your little "kids will be kids" aside they stole a gun. The KEPT a gun. They kept it LOADED. They took the aforementioned loaded gun to school.

Don't know what to tell you LG other than I'm very happy one of them got shot as opposed to someone who truly would have been an innocent victim.

I do think the idea brought up earlier is a valid one. For the sake of argument if that had been a gun someone with a carry permit was forced to leave in the vehicle by going into a restaraunt that served alcohol then this newly passed law might have actually saved his life.
 
#67
#67
lawgator1 said:
.....I defended a case a few years back...... .
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Which party were you defending (i.e., kid who accidentally shot his friend, original gun owner who left the gun in the car, other)?

I assume, based upon your comments that it was the kid. If you defended the original gun owner (i.e., negligence) what was your defense or what would it have been?
 
#68
#68
lawgator1 said:
I was speaking wholistically to the notion that a better armed general public would result in a reduction in crime and specifically to the curtailing of thse lunatics showing up in schools or malls and what not, not to any particular measure or bill on a particular place or circumstance. Sorry if I wasn't clear.
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Seems to have worked that way in Texas.
 
#69
#69
A constitutionally protected right is not a privilege that the government giveth and the government can restrict or take away at its pleasure. The whole freaking point of having a constitution is to establish limits on the powers of government.
 
#70
#70
VolunteerHillbilly said:
A constitutionally protected right is not a privilege that the government giveth and the government can restrict or take away at its pleasure. The whole freaking point of having a constitution is to establish limits on the powers of government.
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Truth.

And I don't just mean the 2nd here. It's gotten bad on this point. So much so that a number of states have started reaffirming their awareness of the 10th if needed to defend the rest of it.
 
#71
#71
VolunteerHillbilly said:
A constitutionally protected right is not a privilege that the government giveth and the government can restrict or take away at its pleasure. The whole freaking point of having a constitution is to establish limits on the powers of government.
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I love it when people just crap all over the plain language of the 2nd Amendment and act as if it provides a complete prohibition of any regulation on the ownership and possession of arms.
 
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#72
#72
Kind of like free speech really being free. It's regulated as well. So is assembly. Perhaps the press needs equal regulation...
 
#73
#73
hatvol96 said:
I love it when people just crap all over the plain language of the 2nd Amendment and act as if it provides a complete prohibition on any regulation on the ownership and possession of arms.
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You seem to have inferred quite a bit from his post. I don't see where he states he thought the RKBA is absolute and beyond regulation.
 
#74
#74
The way I see it, either it is a right or it is not a right. If it is a right, then by definition the government shouldn't be meddling with it.

FWIW, I don't carry and even if I did, this law would not do me much good, because I like my adult beverages. I just don't want anybody monkeying around with my rights, whether or not I utilize such rights.
 
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