'17 GA ATH DeAngelo Gibbs

[bignewt]

Using your logic, we only have 22 initial counters for 2019 remaining. We are at 19 signees plus 2 transfers. So you are saying we only have on spot left? When every recruiting site is saying we have 3-4.

I stand by my logic.

If we counted our transfers ahead the last two years we will count Gibbs and Solomon in '20. So right now we have 23 spots in '20 class.

 

[LA Vol]

You neglected both the medical retirements of Brooks and Antonutti and the Solomon and Gibbs transfers. Which I guess you could say they negate each other.

I didn't name names because UT doesn't officially release who counts when. Either both Solomon and Gibbs will count against 2020 or one will count against 2019. It depends on when they're placed on athletic scholarship, and UT doesn't release that info. Coaches, players and parents aren't supposed to release it, either. Some might, but UT Compliance does not.

 

[VOLuptuousBOOMS]

The medical retirement is mutually beneficial for both the players and the teams. The players continue to receive financial aid from the school, and the school receives their initial counter back.

If the school did not receive an initial counter, then they would not receive any benefit when comparing it to just cutting a player, "git shirting". The team gets a counter back on the 85 no matter how the player leaves the team. (retires, quits, transfers, etc.) Their would be nothing special about a medical retirement if all they got back was a spot on the 85. The schools would have no real benefit or reason to continue paying for a players school, food, books, etc. other than from the kindness of their heart.

That is the reason schools get their initial counter back. A mutually beneficial situation.

 

[Devo182]

I think you may be correct. Someone posted an article last week (can't find it now) quoting an LSU compliance guy talking about transfers. He said that transfers count against a class. I don't know the rules but I figure a guy who has that job should know.

It is 100% correct, transfers always count toward a class. Bylaws say so.

Also, if you don't believe in bylaws, Callahan say so too.

 

[VOLuptuousBOOMS]

If we counted our transfers ahead the last two years we will count Gibbs and Solomon in '20. So right now we have 23 spots in '20 class.

I didn't name names because UT doesn't officially release who counts when. Either both Solomon and Gibbs will count against 2020 or one will count against 2019. It depends on when they're placed on athletic scholarship, and UT doesn't release that info. Coaches, players and parents aren't supposed to release it, either. Some might, but UT Compliance does not.

The grad transfers and Thompson from last year counted toward 2019 because they were summer enrollees. You cannot forward count a mid-year enrollee (Gibbs and Soloman) into the next year, they will count against 2019 unless Pruitt pulls some strings and doesn't put Gibbs on Athletic Scholarship until the summer, ie Blueshirting him. That is why Kennedy counted toward 2018, and the rest of the transfers went to 2019. Once again putting us back to the 22 number.

 

[bignewt]

It is 100% correct, transfers always count toward a class. Bylaws say so.

Also, if you don't believe in bylaws, Callahan say so too.

Oh, Callahan? Why didn't you say so?

 

[LA Vol]

Using your logic, we only have 22 initial counters for 2019 remaining. We are at 19 signees plus 2 transfers. So you are saying we only have on spot left? When every recruiting site is saying we have 3-4.

I stand by my logic.

Well, my "logic" comes from a compliance attorney, not a recruiting site, so I'm going with that.

 

[butchna]

Antonutti and Brooks both participated in team activities before medical retirement, which removes them from the 85 but not the 25.

Which team activities did Antonutti participate in? He missed workouts and spring practice and Fall camp.

 

[Devo182]

"It's complicated. But let's look at things from a more general perspective. There are multiple factors that contribute to this number, which is ever-changing; the most relevant being the 85 player scholarship limit, the 25 scholarship per academic year restriction, transfers, players who fail to qualify after signing their letter NLI (National Letter of Intent), early enrollees and grayshirts.

FBS (Division 1A football) allows up to 85 scholarships, or total counters, per program at any given time, making it a constant factor in the number of prospects a school can add to it's roster, annually. At the same time, schools are only allotted up to 25 new scholarships per academic year, called initial counters.

Players who transfer from institutions positively impact the overall (85) player scholarship limitation by opening up a spot. While players who transfer in take up a spot within the overall 85, but only count as initial counters if they transfer in at the beginning of the academic year (as opposed to mid-year). However, an even more direct component of the number of players a school can attain any given year are early enrollees; which, when combined with grayshirting, yield an over-signing work-around."

Not sure who is saying this - but the missing context is simply that the kid would only count against that year's 25 ICs if he enrolled before the Spring. IF he enrolls in the Spring, he would likely be counted toward the next academic year (ie Solomon or Gibbs taking a scholarship in Spring 18-19 would be a 19-20 IC. Same as for all other midyears. There's no differentiation in the rules for transfers and non-transfers, outside of the 4-2-4 same school transfer, which is very rare.

 

[Devo182]

Apparently its because of Chryst, London and Kennedy I thought.

Assuming they or some other combo of 3 blueshirted, it doesn't really limit the numbers, just means we have to keep blueshirting to take another 25. But if what some say is true, Pruitt is fine leaving open a spot or two, presumably for a transfer or just to stop blueshirt rollovers. The new signing rule essentially ended blueshirting anyways.

 

[Devo182]

My understanding is that we had a full 25 for 2018. Kennedy went toward that 2018 total. Chryst, London, and Thompson counted against the 25 for 2019. That put us at 22 spots remaining for 2019. We picked up two initial counters with Antonutti and Brooks, giving us 24. Soloman and Gibbs deduct from 2019, so now we are back at 22. We signed 19, so that leaves us 3 remaining spots. I believe we have the possibility of 4 spots remaining because I think there are some "angles" that could be taken to push Gibbs into 2020. Also have the Anthony Harris Blueshirt possibility as well.

VQ has consistently said 3-4 spots remaining.

Math is a bit funky because you're assuming a 25 class. IF med retirements actually opened up ic and signing spots, then we could fit 26-27 into this class, wouldnt we? Yet no one has reported that.

You don't get ICs (or signees) back with medical retirements (only exception is incapicitating injury or ilness before ever practicing).

Simple math is:
19 signees
+ 2 transfers
+ 3-4 more as you said
= 24-25

No need to care about blueshirts from last year, that only dictates how many blueshirts we must force this time around.

 

[RockyTopInBham]

We only had 22 spots in 2018, due to forward-counting three from 2017. We signed three grad transfers in June 2018 and forward-counted them to 2019. So we only have 22 spots in 2019. We early-signed 19 in Dec, leaving three spots available. We'll sign three players on NSD, with Wright and To'oto'o being top of the list. Any others will be forward-counted to 2020.

I struggle to understand where some of the numbers come from. From what I tried to keep up with, we forward counted Fant, Calbert, & Wiggins from the 2017 class.

Then in 2018 class, we added 22, but 2 of those were blueshirts from what I remember (Brandon Davis & Bryce Thompson), so we could add Keller Chryst & Madre London to the '18 class. With Davis & Thompson counting towards 2019, we then also added Brandon Kennedy & Kenneth George Jr. So I figured we should've lost 4 spots from the '19 class with Davis, Thompson, Kennedy, & George.

I'll admit, I don't know how the medical retirements of Brooks or Antonutti could play into this. Guess I just don't get how we have 19 in the picture for this class and figure to add 3-4 more. Not even taking Solomon & Gibbs into account.

 

[Devo182]

Not trying to be argumentative. Why do you think that UT gets an initial counter back for him? I just haven't seen that stated anywhere.

Right. Especially with the hard signee cap. limit is 25, so even getting an ic back would only help in ic numbers, not signing numbers. But med retirements definitely dont get anything back, otherwise they'd be abused way more than they even are now. No need to push a kid into transfer when medical retirements would allow oversigning every year! lol what a mess that would be.

 

[southpaw75]

Can someone point me to the Gibbs thread? Think I've gotten lost.

 

[Devo182]

Ive heard too they get 2 spots for him and Antonutti. Medicals free up initial counters I guess.

If true, why didn't our class max limit (reported by vq, 247, etc ALL offseason as 24-25) not jump up to 26-27? No one ever changed their max class size assumptions. Nor did anyone report we'd get signee spots (big deal now) and ICs back . Not sure where it's coming from.

 

[head1]

Bottom line nobody on here truly knows how many spots we have. You have to think there are at least two spots left because they would not take Gibbs and not leave a spot for Wright and To'oto'to. Russell may not even really have a spot and is just a fall back if HT switches in the end.

 

[Devo182]

Because of the "Medical Retirement". The same reason we get one for Tanner Antonutti. What class the medical retirement was in has no bearing on whether or not we receive his initial counter back. Technically we would be receiving an initial counter from 2016 (Brooks) and 2018 (Antonutti). So one of our signees would be an initial counter in our 2016 class. That is my understanding. I see no by-law that delineates the difference between Antonutti's and Brooks' situations.

View attachment 190782

What you have quoted is for counters. No one is disputing we get counters (85 limit) back.

 

[Devo182]

Using your logic, we only have 22 initial counters for 2019 remaining. We are at 19 signees plus 2 transfers. So you are saying we only have on spot left? When every recruiting site is saying we have 3-4.

I stand by my logic.

Not who you responded to, but remember blueshirts. That is how we will get to 24-25 (if we do) regardless of how you break it out.

 

[Devo182]

Bottom line nobody on here truly knows how many spots we have. You have to think there are at least two spots left because they would not take Gibbs and not leave a spot for Wright and To'oto'to. Russell may not even really have a spot and is just a fall back if HT switches in the end.

True, only the school knows, but I trust various mods that consistently report 24-25 as the max. That's the assumption we all have.

 

[LA Vol]

Which team activities did Antonutti participate in? He missed workouts and spring practice and Fall camp.

Team meetings count as activities. And both were at practices, even if on the sidelines. UT could petition, but both participated.

 

[Devo182]

If we counted our transfers ahead the last two years we will count Gibbs and Solomon in '20. So right now we have 23 spots in '20 class.

If we counted them forward, it would only be because they blueshirted. But those 3 also came in later. Solomon and Gibbs being undergrads came in immediately for Spring. So unless they're paying their own way, it seems unlikely. Would seem tough to convince transfers to do that.

 

[Devo182]

The medical retirement is mutually beneficial for both the players and the teams. The players continue to receive financial aid from the school, and the school receives their initial counter back.

If the school did not receive an initial counter, then they would not receive any benefit when comparing it to just cutting a player, "git shirting". The team gets a counter back on the 85 no matter how the player leaves the team. (retires, quits, transfers, etc.) Their would be nothing special about a medical retirement if all they got back was a spot on the 85. The schools would have no real benefit or reason to continue paying for a players school, food, books, etc. other than from the kindness of their heart.

That is the reason schools get their initial counter back. A mutually beneficial situation.

Getting an 85 spot is very beneficial and it's why Saban has been doing it for years. Tough to push a kid to transfer when he has no knees. He might say no thanks. Then offering a scholarship is a diffetent route, since they can't just cut the kid.

But again, even getting a past IC spot back would do you no good with the annual signing limit as it is now. And no bylaws support this. And our class limit hasn't gone up to 26, 27. And no site mod has stated as such. And teams aren't out signing 30 a year because of this. I've seen many articles on how oversigning has occurred, not one ever stated medical retirements as a reason.


It simply isn't true.

 

[VOLuptuousBOOMS]

I don’t know why I try to argue with people about numbers. So much bad information being posted. Happens every year.

So @LA Vol you have spoken to the UT compliance attorney about our numbers situation? Could provide some further detail on how medical retirements only impact the 85 man limit? What benefit does the school receive to continue funding their scholarship? The school could just pull their scholarship and get their counter toward the 85 back.

 

[butchna]

Team meetings count as activities. And both were at practices, even if on the sidelines. UT could petition, but both participated.

I think that’s bull on your part. More than VQ has reported that we get back the initial counter for Antonutti. Bama has been doing this medical retirement crap for awhile and plenty of theirs actually practiced. Maybe we’ll know for sure after Fall camp...maybe.

 

[RockyTopTexas]

Just hope everyone knows how sick this kid is gonna be in our secondary.. especially after a year on the practice field with Pruitt. He’s rangy as hell. I’m so hype for him in 2 years